This is the full transcript for Episode #255 of the Wild Business Growth Podcast featuring Robert Brunner – Beats by Dre Designer, Founder of Ammunition. You can listen to the interview and learn more here. Please note: this transcript is not 100% accurate.
Robert Brunner 0:00
And I’m like that one? Like Yes. Don’t fuck around. Do that
Max Branstetter 0:18
Hello there, welcome back to the Wild Business Growth Podcast. This is your place to hear from a new entrepreneur every single Wednesday morning who’s turning Wild ideas into Wild growth. I’m your host, Max Branstetter, Founder and Podcast Producer at MaxPodcasting. And you can email me at to save time with your high-quality podcast. This is episode 255. And today’s shiggity schwam guest is Robert Brunner. Robert is a legendary industrial designer who is the Chief Designer of Beats by Dre. He is the Founder of the design firm Ammunition, he served as the Head of Industrial Design at Apple, he has been a Partner at Pentagram, many, many, many more stops, that we talk about all in each of those in this episode, as well as the inside scoop of what makes Apple and Beats by Dre so game-changing in the world of design. We also talk what it’s like to work with Dr. Dre, what do you call Dr. Dre in the office, and some more of the coolest people Robert has met through his design journey. It is our R&B. Enjoyyyyyyy the shoooooow!
Aaaaaalrightyyyy we’re here with Robert Brunner, one of the brightest minds in the world of design, which kind of rhymes and sorry, I should just leave now. But, Robert, so excited to speak with you. Thanks so much for making time today. How’re you doing today?
Robert Brunner 1:49
I am fantastic. Thank you very much really, really happy to be here. Of course,
Max Branstetter 1:53
of course back at you. And we could talk for probably days straight on everything that you’ve touched on your career and all the designs you’ve played a part in. But I wanted to start off going back in time and making you think about was there any indication growing up that you wanted to work with and work for these giant massive brands like Apple, Beats by Dre, Pentagram, like those are those are huge goals for a lot of designers. What was your outlook on that?
Robert Brunner 2:24
When I’m growing up, I had no idea that that such a career existed. You know, when when I when I get to look back through the you know, through the lens of time, I can see the seeds, you know, my god comes from your family and your parents. My father was an incredibly accomplished talented creative engineer, he he actually invented a lot of the mechanical technology and disk drives the first disk drives at IBM. And he was you know, he was just an inventor and he was always building stuff in the garage, he built a couple of boats in our driveway. And you know, and he that’s that’s just who he was. And then my my mother was a originally a fashion model. But as she became a homemaker she became she was a craftsperson, and an artist and our home, everything was a project. You know, that’s just how, how things operated, there was always something being built or created. So so that, you know, when I look back at that, I can see Yeah, that makes sense. You know, and I’d spent a lot of time in the garage, building bicycles and doing whatever, you know, just to kind of watch my dad and so forth. So it it makes sense, right that I ended up in this space. But when I went to school, I had no idea that this design career existed. I just stumbled onto it.
Max Branstetter 3:34
So what was the scene at your house? Like was there how many disk drives and prototypes and things were there? Like everywhere you step?
Robert Brunner 3:42
Oh, it was it was hilarious. I mean, I’ll date myself with my you know, we used to have these like my dad, who the first disk drives are created with these 14 inch Winchester disk drives, so are these platters all around the house, we still play frisbee with them. And I remember one time I had he was coming up with a new mechanism and I had one of these telescoping bicycle pumps you know the kind you put on your frame of your bike and he destroyed it making a mock up, you know that to figure out how this mechanism work? I was really pissed at him because he he never replaced it. He just grabbed it and used it as a as a prop. So yeah, that was that was always going on. And I joke about my mom because you know she every year the Christmas tree was different. It was like a piece of performance art she there was always a concept like I can’t we just have ornaments. You know, this year? No, this year it’s it’s pink ornaments and pink bows. That’s it, you know, it’s all we’re doing. That was my mom was like so, you know, that’s you just absorbed that stuff, right? And you just start thinking, thinking in that way and tackling problems in that way and it filters into who you are.
Max Branstetter 4:47
And that sounds like something out of a movie or documentary or something like that. It’d be a very entertaining and inspiring household to be in. Those examples are kind of learning by example, and let’s stop rubbing off any of that way. were there specific lessons that your mom or dad told you that were ended up being pretty foundational in your decision to choose design?
Robert Brunner 5:09
No, it was more absorbed into but my decision to choose design was kind of interesting because I, you know, when I graduated from high school, you go and see, you know, the, the counselor who tells you looks at your record says you should do this, right? And he looked and said, You’re good at math and science, your dad’s an engineer, you’re an engineer, so Okay, great. I’m gonna say engineering, you know, but he didn’t look at my history and art and shop. And you know, which I was like, straight A student, you know, in all those areas, I was like A, B, and C student and everything else, but and when it came to anything creative, I was, you know, straight A, but it was a little bit of indictment, because, you know, in an educational system, and even today, that isn’t as valued as highly as it should be. I enrolled at San Jose State University, I was a civil engineering because I thought, you know, that’d be cool to build bridges, right? Or work on the Alaska pipeline or like that, right? And then somebody told me all the money’s in electrical design. Oh, okay. Well, I switched to electrical design. I mean, electrical engineering, was about a year into it. And just not feeling it. I mean, it was doing all right, but it just didn’t, it was sort of the engineering core classes were like, Okay, here’s a problem, here’s a book, go find the solution in the book. And, you know, and solve the problem, that didn’t feel very good to me. And so I thought, Okay, I’m gonna rebel, I went over the art department, I had heard of this thing called graphic design, you know, which was some fourth form of commercial art. And I like to draw and paint and things as following my mom that way. And I walk in the building, and one of the door and there was this display case full of industrial design stuff, you know, it was renderings, and models, and, you know, sketches. And I just, like, stood there and said, Okay, this is it. This makes sense. And I went the administrative building, change my major, which, you know, piss my father off, he saw, I remember this, quote, my dad’s no longer with us, but he said, you know, Robert, industrial designers are the people who specify the paint, and it usually peels off was just like, he had zero respect for industrial design. Being a mechanical engineer, he just saw them as people that made his life more difficult, tough, you know, I’m doing this anyway. And, you know, he came to understand and actually became a supporter. But in the beginning, it was kind of like, you know, why are you doing this, you’re gonna throw your career down the tubes even coming, you know, spending all your time in the art building, that, you know, so that was how I actually found out about design, it was literally, if I’d gone in another door, you know, I could, who knows, you know, I can be a starving sculptor or something, you know?
Max Branstetter 7:48
Much to your father’s chagrin, let’s get to industrial, industrial design and design overall. So, in your own words, how do you distinguish industrial design versus other types of design?
Robert Brunner 8:02
Well, I mean, let’s start with design. And, you know, for me, design is, you know, at its core is the purposeful creation of something, right, it’s really, you know, people are designing things all the time they’re creating it, you know, when you’re very purposeful about what you’re doing with it with with a goal and some directionality to it, I think that’s really design, it’s about industrial design can be pretty broad, it’s really, it tends to be around things that are three dimensional, it tends to be around at its core artifacts that are produced at scale. But you know, it can lead into towards architecture, it can lead towards human interface, it can lead towards graphic design, it can lean towards a lot of areas, but at the core, it tends to be the creation of things that are going to be built and built in quantities of two to a bazillion. Right? And so it’s really about that, and all that goes into it and all that all that goes into making something usable, useful and desirable. For for people. That’s kind of it for me, you know, I have very different direction in mind is going to kind of pragmatic but it’s really about these creation of things that, that we fill our lives with,
Max Branstetter 9:13
do you have a few key principles that still to this day with ammunition group, you try to instill to new hires about approaching design?
Robert Brunner 9:24
You know, one of the things that really I became, you know, when I first you know, saw that display case, and switch to design, I was really interested in the, like I said, the artifacts and drawing and, you know, just I remember going from, you know, hours and hours of daily homework around physics and calculus to sketching, you know, making models and, you know, it’s like, I mean, heaven, what is it do this, because it’s actually college, I can’t believe it. And so I was I was enamored by that. But then I began to as I studied it and studied what it was about, I began to be fascinated by this relationship that people have with things is species we surround ourselves with things that we like. And many times define who we are. And, and we have a connection to, you know, and you know, if you look at the car you drive or the shoes you wear, or the, you know, briefcase, you have all these things, you know, you’ve you’ve selected, and many times you have this sort of connection to, you know, that extends well beyond its functionality. And that was fascinating to me, you know, that people are drawn to things and put meaning in them. So, so that was kind of a high level thing. So I also, you know, it’s interesting, because I mentioned, I went to San Jose State University, which was a great school because my dad loved it, because it wasn’t expensive being a California resident, but it also, they had this sort of very practical approach to design, which was really around two main areas, problem solving, and developing skills. It didn’t really have a philosophical backbone, right, it really wasn’t sort of, you know, this is this is what good design means, you know, somehow I became really interested in, in European designers, and modernism, and post modernism as, as an approach, right, and just, and I was different than most of my classmates, you know, they were, they were more driven by Star Wars and Atari and things like that at the time that were, you know, sort of culturally relevant. You know, I remember my, my, my senior critique, there was a, there was a German designer, I remember who he was, it was, was came in as a guest, and he looked at my work, and he says, I can’t believe in American is designed such a thing, you know, this is common. And so you know, that, you know, that sort of filters down into these, these sort of simplicity, a cleanliness about design, clarity, functionality, you know, the sort of very sort of core principles around building things that have longevity, that there was a little bit of it that my influence again, from where I was in where I was sitting in California, that also was around expressionism, no, I just had this, this feeling that things should have a personality. And I became fascinated with there was a Italian architect and designer named Mario Bellini. He’s still around, still practicing. And he had done this work for all of Edie, which was really, in my opinion, the beginnings of technology design, you know, but at that time, it was around calculators and typewriters and things like that, but I was looking at his work. And the things always looked like they were moving like they were getting ready to take off or, or they had just landed or just, you know, the static things on your desk, but they had life and energy about them. And I became really obsessed with his work. And it really sort of drove my early thinking. So I, you know, I’m sort of this modernist backbone, but with, with a desire to give things character and personality, and that became a sort of defining approach to my work.
Max Branstetter 12:48
Yeah, it’s really interesting hearing you go through the background and your motives and interest there, because of course, there’s the whole passion around design and the acumen there. But there’s also this interest in like, the more traditional arts and being inspired by that. And then the, I guess, what you’d sum up as meaning like stuff having meaning. And so it’s really cool to hear that. Like, it’s, it’s not just in simple form of like, we want to make stuff that looks cool. It’s like, we want to keep the focus on people having connection with the products that they use, and people having, you know, connections with each other, you know, through these products as vehicles. That’s awesome. And like a really, I feel unique perspective to have there. When you look at the different stops in your career, like it’s, it’s amazing for somebody to not just start to get into this space from you know, that experience walking through a door, but also to get a quote unquote, big break and start working with like major major companies. How did the apple opportunity presents itself for you in the first place?
Robert Brunner 13:56
It’s a it’s a great story I out of school and worked in a in a local firm in Palo Alto was actually a fairly large firm at the time. And I met met a couple guys, and we sort of connected George Furbershaw and Jeff Smith. And we, we decided to leave and start our own company, which became a studio called lunar, which still exists. And so we just, we just had this sort of really great partnership where I tended to be more of the creative lead, and Gerard was more of the technical guy and Jeff was more of the process guy and we kind of were able to tackle stuff and and so we had been working doing our thing, and at that time going back in history that Steve Jobs really caught the industrial design bug and brought in Hartmut Esslinger as a German designers company Frog Design, and they really sort of came moved set up shop in Silicon Valley. At the time, a couple other groups that had formed coming over from Europe. And you know, I think these guys were great and they really saw the potential of technology algae, you know, so I was working in that space and was so but frog had Apple really locked up in this airtight contract that couldn’t work with other other design firms and got this call from a guy named Bill Dresselhaus, who actually was the original designer of the Lisa, like the format of Apple going way, way back I Premack. And he was still there. And he had this was working on this sort of skunkworks project. And he asked us to work on it. And he said, what we can’t You can’t call it industrial design, you’re doing engineering, okay? Are we really doing industrial design. And later, I kind of realized it was a test, you know, it was sort of they were moving out of that relationship they wanted to find other people to work with. And it was a bit of a test. And, and apparently, we passed, I passed, so we started doing more projects, and then the frog relationship broke up, and they started, you know, we just began working on projects. For me, which was freaking amazing. Just, you know, you know, I was just, you know, maybe four years out of school, you know, and also doing work for Apple and somehow even got major responsibility in some things. And you know, and a part of it, I think, you know, going back to that childhood thing, somehow I got this thing from my parents, which you know, loosely translates, you know, don’t ask for permission, ask for forgiveness, right? It’s sort of, you know, just do it and figure it out. And so that that was kind of the way I approached it. So, so doing these projects, really loving it, and having a great time. And then one day, I get a call from this Headhunter who it was, and it was sort of weird, because he was hired by the head of product design at Apple who I was working with. But he had this inkling and said, you know, look at where we’re looking for a new design director, are you interested? And I thought, Oh, wow, that’s flattering, okay, let’s, let’s talk about it and see, you know, I was really happy what I was doing, it wasn’t like it was looking for anything. And started to dive into it. And at that time, they weren’t their internal design team wasn’t doing a lot of their own work. They were largely managing external designers. And I just said, you know, what, I’m not really interested in that. I’m a designer, I make stuff. That’s what I do. I don’t want to go into a pure management position and watch other people do the fun stuff. And so I said, No, which like, shocked them. Okay. And so they went away. And then about three months later, they came back said, look, we’ve been searching, we really think you’re the person, you know, what would it take? And you know, so going back to that, watch out what you asked for thing I said, you know, what, Apple, if any company could have a world class design studio, and if he wanted to build that, I’d be interested in that. And they said, Okay, let’s do that. And so I decided, you know, really hard decision because I loved, you know, my Jeff and Gerard, I loved what we were doing a lunar, we’d built it up from just the three of us and like, you know, 18 people, which was, you know, substantial, you know, but it was kind of like, you know, and I was, uh, you know, like all of 2627 years old. And I remember thinking, you know, you’re young enough to make a big mistake and recover. So, let’s just do this. And so I did. And, and so that’s how the apple opportunity came about, and just dove into figuring out how to build this studio and team that could really sort of drive not just the company, but you know, that will the world turn off the world of design,
Max Branstetter 18:29
your next book could be called the man who rejected Apple, it’s gonna be to take that to the grave. But there’s an asterix there, because obviously, you partnered with them and, and had an amazing career stop there and collaborations. So it’s really interesting, the angle with Apple is that your focus was on like building that design studio, and really, kind of instilling that in the culture or making that a bigger part of the culture there. What’s your favorite memory from those several years, you had an apple in that role?
Robert Brunner 19:02
One of the ones which always I remember getting there and thinking, what the fuck have I done? Because Apple at the time, and to some degree, still is, is an engineering driven culture. I mean, it really is driven a lot by by technology, and, you know, and the things that they’re creating there. And I got an eye, you know, I was shown to my desk, which was a 10 by 12, windowless cubicle of Herman Miller action office furniture, in a sea of engineers. And I’m just like, sitting there depressed as hell. It’s like, I can’t work in this space. i What have I done, you know, and I’ve got to restart from scratch and figure all this out. And so I remember that sitting there like the second or third day just feeling like oh, God, can I get out of this? But you know, and then along the way, then, there was this project that was just starting, which you know, became the PowerBook, which became The MacBook, it was a mess, right it. This is history lesson, Apple’s first portable computer was the size of a sewing machine. And it was, you know, just kind of an industry laughing point. And some others had come out with literally notebook sized computers, they’re a little thick, but they were notebook sized. And Napa was way behind and was trying to catch up and trying to figure out how to transition from building things that sit on your desk to things that you carry around. And everything that goes into that. And it was just a mess. And, and we were trying to and then Apple had this other overhead that other companies didn’t, which was, you know, a graphical interface that required an integrated pointing device, right? At that time, you know, you could all the other products had these sort of clip on track balls, and they didn’t really need to put it or use the mouse or whatever they need really need to put it in the machine. And we felt we had to and so all of a sudden we’re we have all this pressure around form factor. But we got a jam in at that time, which was a trackball. And while I favorite memories was we’re trying to figure this out. And there was this engineer there named John Krakauer, who was kind of a loose cannon. And he said, I got this idea, he would come over to my cubicle and see it. And he was doing this sort of puzzle game and moving all the pieces around and trying to figure out to make space and he said, Look, here, if we push the keyboard back, there’s a space in the front between the battery in the hard drive where we can put this trackball. And he was thinking more just how do you do it, and we looked at it, and then just said, Oh, my God, this is amazing. Because what it did was create this, you know, work surface that no matter where you went on your lap, on your airline table, and you had this sort of consistent workspace, that was really turned out to be almost ergonomically perfect. And so we just ran with it, you know, we just said, Look, we didn’t do a live testing, you know, we did core some usability work, which is like, okay, we’re just, we’re just gonna make this, right, because we’re way behind, and we don’t have any choice. And today, you know, it is still the de facto standard. For notebook computer. I mean, it’s the trackball is replaced with a trackpad, things have gotten much thinner, much more powerful, but it’s still the same exact design, you know, after over 20 years, right. And so that, you know, that memory of seeing that and going, this is crazy, let’s do it, you know, and just going in and running it out to the market was, was an incredible experience. And messy and painful. And, you know, just really hard, but we just did it.
Max Branstetter 22:31
I think that’s a good indication that something might be worth trying, if it makes you say, This is crazy. Let’s do it. We’re just to live by words to design and, and rollout by there.
Robert Brunner 22:42
I wrote a book. And I was over a decade ago, but you know, one of the headings of the chapters was, you know, risk is not a four letter word. You know, it really is, you know, in technology, if you’re not taking any risks, you’re probably going to die. So it’s, it’s really something you have to be comfortable with.
Max Branstetter 23:01
Could you tell at that time with Apple that this company would keep, you know, for decades and decades on and after keep growing and become just a leading force in the space of products? And design?
Robert Brunner 23:12
Yes. And no, it was, you know, the culture, you know, and that’s, you know, I think that’s really around, you know, Steve Jobs made had two stints at Apple, and I often joke I was I joke Why was between jobs. You know, he really set forth a culture of design appreciation. And Steve used to talk about the arts and how important the arts sort of business, right, and that connection to culture through the arts. And, and I remember getting there and, you know, just seeing thoughtfulness and design everywhere, I mean, all the way to, you know, when you walk into the cafeteria, and you’ve got this bulletin board of announcements, and every piece on there was well designed and thoughtfully created, right. And just in so that I think what I saw is, wow, this is this is really incredible at this scale that you have everywhere you look, there is sensitivity around design. And then you know, this sort of focus on just creating technology. Really, you know, it sounds like a little bit of a cliche, but really for the betterment of people, right? It was sort of, you know, let’s, let’s give people access as a primary idea, right? We’re going to create amazing things that do amazing things, but at the top is let’s give, make sure people can have access to it. Now, the challenges at the time is that at that time in history, you know, Apple was not fighting any small group of competitors. It was fighting an industry, right? It was the, the windows Intel alliance that was, you know, dominating the world of personal computing. So it wasn’t just like taking on one industry. And that was actually why the company got in trouble for a while as we were trying to do so much. You know, there was at one point we Were in so many markets and had so many products and it was just spread so thin, trying to make sure you know, we sort of plugged the holes in the damn day, you know, keep keep things moving. And that’s why when Steve came back for a second stint, you know, he really sort of cut like three quarters of the product line out and really focused what the company should be doing, which which was the right thing to do. So when I left, you know, I was I did have concern for Apple and the leadership because it was really sort of losing sight of its core values. There was a lot of the growth was happening by bringing people in from from other companies like Hewlett-Packard and Sun Microsystems, and they weren’t necessarily had this sort of understanding of design and culture. And I was spending more and more time just fighting to do the things we used to do automatically. Right. And so, at that time, I was I was concerned. But then of course, shortly after I left Jobs came back and change company and, and Jony, who had had hired and worked for me and recommended he take over the leadership design department, actually Vaughn to the Steve and everyone knows the story.
Max Branstetter 26:04
Right. And that’s a very famous, famous Jony, for anybody who’s who’s an Apple fan there. Heeeeere’s Jony! And here’s your pitch to sign up for the Podcasting to the Max newsletter because you get terrible jokes, and sometimes even movie references, or Johnny Carson references, if you look into the background of that, like that, if you sign up at max podcasting.com/newsletter Every Thursday, you will get the Podcasting to the Max Newsletter, where podcasting meets entrepreneurship, and terrible puns that sometimes they think of on the spot or sometimes I watch a an infamous Stephen King movie in order to think of them anyway, sign up at MaxPodcasting.com/Newsletter and it won’t make you a very dull boy. Now, let’s move to the Beats and a quick stop at Pentagram. Your next step after that was Pentagram. So somehow you, you went from a company that’s known for design to a company that’s even more known for design. So pentagrams really, really cool company and shoutout, Paula Scher, who we actually had on the podcast previously Principal at Pentagram and she’s amazing actually recorded that one from my, at the time, girlfriend’s closet because there are a lot of noise outside so that was a fun one fun pictures of me in the closet. My girlfriend is now my wife, Dana, but Pentagram, what are your What are your some of your highlights looking back on that time from working with such a thriving design focused on if you call it consultancy or company there?
Robert Brunner 27:39
Well, actually Paula is amazing. She continues to be one of my best friends an incredible, incredible person designer force. i So, you know, again, I often look back and you know, I’ve become much more you know, looking at my career in life and feeling some hand of the universe guiding me because I, you know, I was tired of Apple, and long for my days of mooner and thought, okay, maybe I’ll start another design business. But you know, honestly, it was kind of daunting, you know, I gotta rent a space, I gotta go buy a copier, I got to all these things. I gotta find employees, you just do everything from scratch again. And, and I was I got invited to a luncheon at San Francisco Museum of Modern Art and sat next to Kitt Heinrichs, whose partner was a partner at pentagram at that time, mazing ly talented graphic designer, you know, we had a great conversation and at one point towards the end of the luncheon, he leans over and says, Hey, we’re looking to bring on an industrial design partner. Do you know anybody? NOD, NOD, wink wink, you know, can you suggest anybody? Right? And well, you know, what’s interesting about that is, you know, pentagram, at that time, and still was largely driven by the graphic side of visual design side of the business. It’s really the foundation of the company, but I didn’t see it that way. You know, the one that there was called pentagram was originally five partners. And one of them was Kenneth Grange, and who was one of those designers I studied. You know, when I was in school, and Kenneth is an amazing industrial designer, British industrial designer. And so I had this image of pentagram, not so much as being focused on that, but really, as around Kenneth in his work. And then, you know, as I began to know, Colin Forbes, who was one of the other founders, you know, the the business model he created was really fascinating in that it’s sort of this it’s almost structured more like a law firm than a design firm, right? You have partners, each partner has an area of focus. Each partner has their own team and in many ways has their own line of business but you operate under this umbrella is use the brand and use the structure and use the resources that company to build your own thing. And I thought, this is really amazing. I can pretty much go do my own thing, but jump into something you know, With at that point, you know, some 30 years of relevance in the world. And, and in many ways being asked to be a partner was like, you know, being that you know, asked to be the queen of the prom. I mean, it was, it was like, very, very much an honor. And it was great. I mean, it really, you know, I was working with some of literally the best at what they do in the world, tackling really interesting design problems for some of the biggest, most powerful corporations in the world. But all with this threat of art and creativity and everything, right, it was just really very clear around what the company brought was was this broader view of not just solving problems, but thinking of the how things fit in the in the world today and the culture that it’s surrounded by, which to me back to what I was interested in really, really resonated?
Max Branstetter 30:53
Well, first of all out, you’d have my vote for prom queen any day, Robert. So on that I have, but we alluded to this with Apple, but your next step after Pentagram was Beats by Dre. So super cool, I think and especially at the start, when I first heard about it, and first saw the commercials and everything were like, wow, this is a really game changing company. In a really cool space, that was long before I got an audio, but really, really cool company there. And you’ve been partnering with them, you know, for about a decade and a half now ish, a little encountering, so that’s awesome. But how did this opportunity presented itself? And what is it that sold you on the idea to partner with these? You know, not that big name, guys, Dr. Dre, Jimmy Iovine
Robert Brunner 31:41
Well, it was, you know, again, those things, it’s just serendipitous. And, you know, and I was I was still a pentagram, but thinking about starting something new, which became ammunition. And actually I was contacted originally by a by a third party who had he was interested in developing products in collaboration with the entertainment industry. And it somehow heard that Jimmy Iovine and Dr. Dre were interested in developing audio products and somehow managed to get a meeting set up and said, You know, I want you to come along, you know? And so like, yeah, oh, god, you know, gotta get to meet Dr. Dre. Sure, I’ll go.
Max Branstetter 32:18
That part’s not a hard sell. Yeah.
Robert Brunner 32:20
But it was wild. And so we went down, listen to what they’re doing and what they wanted to do. And it was it was really an interesting thought that I remember in the first meeting, we were talking to Ray about what why are you doing this? And he’s made this statement, which we’ve actually for, like five years put on the packaging, which was, you said people aren’t hearing my music? What does that mean? Well, I spend an enormous amount of time crafting a sound. And then you know, these kids are listening to it through quote, unquote, crappy white earbuds. Which is funny, that crappy white earbud company bought them eventually, but
Max Branstetter 33:00
I wasn’t good to say
Robert Brunner 33:02
it basically, Jimmy had that look at two things here. One, we create much of the popular music, we know how it’s supposed to sound. And so we want to build products that are designed in tune to replicate that sound. The second thing, which, you know, Jimmy is an incredibly creative person genius. And he he saw that for his audience, you know, in that he was developing music and building artists. There was no high performance audio brand, it just didn’t exist, right? There was no you know, it’s like I always say Bose is your dad’s headphone, right? So it just there was nothing there. And he said, This is for the people I’m talking to, nothing exists. And but but then they had no idea what to do. They had no idea what they were doing. It was, I mean, there’s power in that, but it’s also for my one where I sat was times just really frustrating. It’s like, you guys have no idea what to do here to get something out in the world. And so but you know, so we went away and got this assignment. Okay, let’s come up with some ideas for this headphone, and you got like two weeks. And so we my team just poured everything into it. And the other thing that emerged from it, which was interesting was that they wanted to do a business partnership, right, there wasn’t just we’re gonna hire you and pay you a fee. You know, and at the time, I was like, I didn’t realize, oh, wait, whatever I get again, I get to work with Dr. Dre. So you know, and, um, but you know, and later, I began to realize that’s how they did everything, you know, when you go out and create an album or a song, it’s, it’s, you know, it’s a partnership, really, between the artists, the producer, the label, you know, everybody, you know, kind of takes a cut, right? And that’s, that’s the way they view doing things. So I really came back with all these ideas, you know, as much as we could do and I’ve laid him on the table. I’ll never forget this moment because normally what would happen is people tend to be overwhelmed with multiple ideas and you try and just kind of narrow it down, right? You just say okay, let’s get it down to a smaller group. Oops. So we can kind of focus and figure it out. And we’re looking at explaining them. And they walked up to this one sketch and said that, let’s do that. And I like that one, like, yes. Don’t fuck around, do that. And it was like, Okay, this is great. And, and agreed, you know that that was a really strong direction, you know, which was the original studio. And it was actually the original sketch is pretty close. And so we went off through this really roller coaster ride of creating the product. And, and it was amazing. And strangely, to me, you know, being a Silicon Valley designer, somehow I connected with them, well, especially Jimmy, who at times has been a great friend and supporter and the total Thorin. And he’s a pain in the ass. But, you know, it actually worked. And I later realized that they viewed me as an artist, too, they viewed me in the same, you know, not to put myself in the same boat, but in the same way, they looked at Lady Gaga, right? It was just like, they saw, you know, an artist who could be who they could push and get to do great work, and so forth, and so on. So I began to realize that’s, that’s why that was that we had that connection.
Max Branstetter 36:16
I think there’s something really energizing about when you’re, you’re looking at potential options, and whoever the client is, or whoever you’re partnering with, it just goes all in on one right away. And it’s like, like, yes, let’s do it. Like, it can be a little bit jarring. But it’s also when there’s that conviction there. It’s like you when that passion comes from the initial selection, and like, alright, this is the path we’re gonna go on. I feel like it saves so much time and so much back and forth and can really energize a team. That is awesome to hear that that’s what happened with beats.
Robert Brunner 36:45
Well, yeah, and I’ve become, I’ve actually been trying to figure out how to write my second book.
Max Branstetter 36:49
Oh, the man who rejected Apple, you mean?
Robert Brunner 36:53
That went? Well, I’m gonna that’s my third. But it’s even though it’s really around this sort of idea of, of how you go from good to great, right? You know, there’s a lot of things you can do to follow the process and have good talent Niantic, turn out good work. But then, but then there’s these things that move the needle, use things that sort of change the world and change markets and change culture. And how does that happen. And you know, as I’ve gone through my career, and looked at all those situations like these, it usually comes down to the maniacal focus of one or a small number of individuals that will not accept anything but amazing. And just are hell bent to do that, you know, as a designer, you need those partners, right? If you’re going to do something that really changes the world, you need those partners you that that’s what that’s what it was, it was like Jimmy, in particular, and Dre was like, this has to be fucking great, Robert, and I’m going to call you up every Saturday morning and yell at you until it is. So, you know, and if I need you hang on to those people, right? Because they’re, they’re there, they will help you do amazing stuff.
Max Branstetter 38:00
I think there’s something to that, that absolute there and almost focus on obsession, but also focus on the negative that you hear about with like, Michael Jordan and Kobe have like the, like, they hated losing more than they enjoyed winning and like, wouldn’t accept, you know, anything less than being the best. And so that obviously applies in the sports world, but it applies in the art and design and in business world, as well. And I’m, I’m fired, like, I want to go buy Beats by Dre right now, because he got fired up.
Robert Brunner 38:30
Yeah, no, it’s true. I mean, if Jimmy IV is a really interesting, man, and if he can go out and find interviews with him, there’s one thing that he says, which is really interesting that, you know, he’ll say, his primary motivator was fear, you know, of not being the best and not being, you know, you know, he really early his career had to really fight to get into the studio and become, you know, the top notch produce producer. He was in working with Bruce Springsteen and John Lennon and everybody didn’t really, but you know, he was he was this outsider that did that. And so he’s here today will say, you know, I just constantly what drives me is the fear of irrelevancy or the fear of being mediocre or the fear, you know, it’s so it’s yeah, it’s an interesting, interesting paradox.
Max Branstetter 39:21
I’m afraid. We’re going to transition, see what I did there to ammunition. And this is a really, really interesting part of your career and ongoing part of your career. Because as you alluded to, with lunar from your earlier days, like, this isn’t the first time that you went out on your own or started going out on your own. But this is I think, you’ve you’ve built an amazing team and we don’t have time to talk through all the projects today. But if you go to ammunition group.com and check out the amazing products that you’ve worked on, like it’s just endless and endlessly cool, even looking at the pictures and learning about them, but What convinced you to fully go all in at At this point in time, really more than realms of entrepreneurship with ammunition.
Robert Brunner 40:05
Yeah, there’s some interesting things that were happening. So I was at pentagram, and, you know, in while pentagram, as I’ve said, it’s an amazing company, an amazing model, you know, I had this problem and that I was really like a boutique within the company and doing product design, there was really only one other designer and that was doing industrial design. And he Danny, while his his approach was in areas who worked in was very different than mine, you know, and then I started looking externally, and a lot of things that were going on that were sort of elevating the role of industrial design in the business community. And one of the dominant ones, of course, was the success of Apple, and almost any product, they put an AI in front of, you know, just be became, you know, world changing. And so people began to look and say, Wait a minute, what is this industrial design thing? Right? It’s, it’s, we need to know how to do that. And I just didn’t think I was in the right place, and position correctly to do that. And so I thought, okay, I never forget, I actually, my wife and I were on our honeymoon, we were in Nicaragua, and we’re sitting on the beach, and I was, you know, complaining, you know, about where I was and what I need to do. And she says, you know, she’s just looking at, why don’t you just shut up and go do that, you know, so I came back and quit, which was actually shocking to the partnership, very few people have ever quit pentagram, you either were fired or you died, you know, that was, he left the left the company Vatta hat, but to the, to my partner’s credit, they were supportive as possible. And I had this unique situation where I was the only one that did what I was doing in the company, right. So my employees weren’t transferable. My clients weren’t transferable. So sort of, like I get, and there was a culture of pentagram, like, what you’ve created is yours. And so I, you know, left and took my team at that time, about 11 people or so. And one day, we were pentagram, and the next day, we were ammunition and but but the idea was, it was a little pentagram, like, but it was a little bit of a focus in that I had learned through my time at Apple that, you know, creating amazing things was a multidisciplinary product process, right? It wasn’t just the industrial designer, it really was thinking through everything about the product and what it was and how it behaved and how people learned about it, and how it was constructed. And everything went into it, right. So the notion was to create this multidisciplinary, firm, but with products at the center of product as a focus. And, and then the other thing which happened, which was extremely important was, you know, there was two things I did, you know, cursor towards the beat story and partnership, I’d also helped start a really small company creating barbecues called Lego, you know, it was, you know, we were really small, I mean, we did like 10, or $15 million of sales a year or something, but, but we kind of changed the world of outdoor equipment design, because we took this very sort of architectural modernist approach to it. And, but the thing that was phenomenal to me was, you know, I was an owner of the company, part owner, I had, I was on the board of directors whose own company, you know, and, but I realized that, you know, I wasn’t having to sell things, people were listening, and just saying, okay, you know, do that, right. And I began to see this sort of power of being in a different business model, not just potentially economically, but being able to really more drive and control your destiny, we started, I started ammunition and later brought on a couple of the partners are a part of our emphasis was to build these relationships. And when that started to take form in two ways, one of the beats relationship just grew and became huge. And the second was we began working with, we’re working with a lot of startups. And it was at a point where hardware startups are really growing in Silicon Valley, and we would take ownership in those companies, we would invest in those companies. And it had, you know, again, sort of the potential you’re hoping, you know, maybe you hit a couple out of the park, but also, again, it sort of changed the way we worked. It actually, when we were part of the proposition A, as I said, Before, people really paid attention to what we wanted to do, but also we were so tied into the business, it made us better designers, you know, really sort of taking everything into consideration, not just kind of portfolio piece, we’re gonna get out of it. And so that that became the foundation of the company, this really sort of entrepreneurial approach where we’re, you know, becoming part of the business of the people we work with and building partnerships,
Max Branstetter 44:46
and partnerships and projects. There’s so many cool projects as I alluded to before, that you and the team at ammunition have, have worked on and brought to this world. I’m not going to make you you know, pick your favorite child but you Is there one product or project in addition to, you know, besides beats and Fago, that with ammunition is just, it’s just very memorable for you working on it for whatever reason.
Robert Brunner 45:12
You know, one of the ones was the work that we did for square. And working with Jack Dorsey. And because we got involved in square, they had done their first credit card reader, which was just such a phenomenal idea and game changing thing across so many. I mean, you know, it used to be that, you know, to take a Visa card was an arduous process to get set up, and you know, what you do, and then all of a sudden, you could get online, click a few boxes, next thing you knew you were, you were taking credit cards to sell your sneakers on the sidewalk, right. And it just changed everything. And but they had a lot of problems with the product, and it hadn’t really been figured out. And so we began, we redesigned the reader and then we were given this assignment, which was really to rethink the the cash register, which became this the Square Stand, it changed the face of retail, really, especially in small business, right, and, and that, that process of developing again, and to Jack’s credit, he wanted to do an amazing piece of design and was willing to, again, go that extra mile to make sure it was amazing. And so it was again, it was opportunities when you know, we could really drive something and make something incredible and have the support of the leadership to do it and take all those extra steps and go through all that pain to do it, make it just right. And then again, it changed the world or retail and so that those kinds of things are the things you look back and say, you know, wow, that was a great thing. But really, it was such a such a phenomenal thing that went out in the world and changed so many people’s lives.
Max Branstetter 46:47
As if we had a square to spare. Let’s wrap up with some Rapid-Fire Q&A. You ready for it?
Robert Brunner 46:52
Alright, let’s do it.
Max Branstetter 46:53
All right, let’s get Wild. What does Dr. Dre go by in the office? Dr. Dre? Andre? What do people call him? dry?
Robert Brunner 47:03
It’s Dre.
Max Branstetter 47:04
That’s it. Easy enough.
Robert Brunner 47:06
Perfect. No Andre. It’s just Dre.
Max Branstetter 47:09
Removing his medical credentials there. How about I heard this a lot. I think I heard it back when I was in college. But there’s this longtime rumor or myth that Beats by Dre would test new headphones by playing “In Da Club” by 50 cent. Is do you know of any truth to that?
Robert Brunner 47:29
I hate it. I was so sick of that song. I mean, that was like always, you know, any any? For a while any evaluation of the audio performance or something was in the club. And I just it’s like that, that opening riff it was just like, Oh, god, do I have to hear this again? Yeah, absolutely true. It was well, you know, and when you listen to it, you know, there were a lot of things going on in the song that different different channels of sound that really could, you know, help you evaluate the products we were doing and listen to how they were playing in, of course, I don’t have anywhere near the ear of Jimmy or Dre. But it was a good test case. But I just heard it so many times. I was like, I’d never want to hear the song again. I mean, to this day, if it comes on the radio, I get kind of like god, not again. Great song
Max Branstetter 48:18
Poor Curtis Jackson. Well, now thanks for confirming that. That’s really, really cool. And shout out my buddy and college roommate, Alex, who I think first told me about that. And I was like, that sounds like a cool story. But I don’t know if they actually do it. But here we go. You heard it here first, or you heard it here 1000th. How about besides Dre and Jimmy? I see you got me. I’m just calling him Dre now, who’s somebody else in the music industry that you met through that time there that was just kind of a pinch me moment for you.
Robert Brunner 48:43
In the beginning, before beats had its own and even after they were right down there with Universal Music, right. And for a while it was Jimmy’s office and then we moved into a building next door. Every meeting you showed up you never do. Right? It’s going to be in there. And you know, everyone from you know, Pharrell Williams, will.i.am, Oliver Stone, I mean, it was always just like, somebody there you know, and it actually was problematic because while they would be amazing counts, amazing musicians, they weren’t necessarily didn’t know that much about design. And so they would make a statement and then I would spend like three months unraveling it because it was totally detrimental to what we were doing. But out of all those have been one of the one that actually we continue to work with on and off for a long time was Pharrell Williams. He was not just you know, obviously, throw it just as such as sensitive, design aware, individual that you know, sometimes we were actually collaborating sometimes it was just for us opinion, but it was always super valuable and just an amazing person to work with. The funny story was, the one person I wanted to meet that I never did was mono, right and mono and Jimmy, were best rounds, but just never worked. And then at later, Johnny, I’ve mentioned had his had this wild 50th birthday party in the UK. And at the party was final. And then you you two played. And it was like four in the morning, I was pretty much wasted. I finally walked up to bado and introduce myself. And I realized later I was probably slurring my speech. And he was like, Who was this drunken fool? And that was that was the time that actually finally got to me Bondo, which was, it was great. So it you know, I always look back at that time, and it’s such a wild ride and so amazing. And really, you know, I met so many people that I never in my lifetime thought I would meet with, let alone work with and it was incredible.
Max Branstetter 50:47
Music to my ears – couldn’t resist. Robert, thank you so much. This has been an absolute blast and just absolutely love speaking with you and learning from you and your amazing journey and stories and where is the best place in addition to AmmunitionGroup.com for people to learn more or connect with you online.
Robert Brunner 51:06
I mean, probably my Instagram and the company Instagram and the company’s @AmmunitionGroup and mine is @RobertDBrunner, those we tend to put a lot of stuff up about what’s happening. And it’s a channel to communicate to but if anyone is interested in our company, or you can go to our website and there’s there’s email to be able to send us questions or whatever and happy to contact people. So also you can find me on LinkedIn as well. Although I get so much so many sales requests on LinkedIn anymore. It’s it’s not the best the best spot.
Max Branstetter 51:41
Right? Oh, sounds so just sales requests. Some spammy stuff right after this. Now, Robert, thanks again. Last thing, final thoughts, just a quote or words to live by, send us home here.
Robert Brunner 51:51
I’ve done a lot of challenging things. And at times, it gets really hard. And I think the one thing I’ve always learned is just keep moving forward, right. Sometimes it’s just that single step you take, don’t get overwhelmed, don’t get stagnant. Just keep moving forward. And you’ll you’ll you’ll get through it and you’ll move to the next step. So never never standstill always move forward.
Max Branstetter 52:15
Keep moving. Thank you so much, Robert, for your incredible – all you’ve done for design and entrepreneurship and sharing the behind-the-scenes inside scoop across your career. And thank you, Wild Listeners, for tuning in to another episode. If you want to hear more Wild stories like this one, make sure to follow the Wild Business Growth Podcast on your favorite podcast app and tell a friend about the podcast. And then, start making sketches with them and you never know what it can turn into. You can also find us on Goodpods, where there are really, really good podcasts and podcast people and podcast recommendations. And for any help with podcast production, you can learn more at MaxPodcasting.com. And sign up for the Podcasting to the Max newsletter. That’s at MaxPodcasting.com/Newsletter. Until next time, let your business Run Wild…Bring on the Bongos!!
