This is the full transcript for Episode #279 of the Wild Business Growth Podcast featuring Peter Rojas – Founder of Gizmodo and Engadget. You can listen to the interview and learn more here. Please note: this transcript is not 100% accurate.
Peter Rojas 0:00
With everything I’ve started I’ve always had this moment within six months of starting where I’ve thought, “Why did I do this?”
Max Branstetter 0:21
Why oh why? Welcome back to the Wild Business Growth Podcast. This is your place to hear from a new entrepreneur every single Wednesday morning who’s turning Wild ideas into Wild growth? Yes, that’s a lot of W’s as always. And as- I am your host, Max Branstetter, Founder and Podcast Producer at MaxPodcasting. And you can email me at to save time with your high-quality podcast. This is episode 279 and today’s guest is Peter Rojas. Peter is a serial entrepreneur who is the founder and previously Editor-in-Chief of some of the hottest tech blogs in the world, notably Gizmodo and Engadget. In this episode, we talk the early days of blogs, early days of Wi-Fi, how Peter built those into behemoths and how to decide what interesting content to write about or podcast about or produced about or whatever about and everything from Peter’s top startup advice to Does that even make sense top startup advice, top advice for startups and his top hotspots in Peru. It is Mr. Rojas. Enjoyyyyyyyy the showwwwwww! Aaaaalrightyyyyyy we’re here with Peter Rojas, one of the the true innovators in spearheads in the world of tech and gadgets. And I’ll just call you Inspector Gadget. Peter, really, really excited to talk to you today about Engadget, Gizmodo, some of the other really, really cool things throughout your career. Thank you so much for joining, how you doing today?
Peter Rojas 2:04
Good. Thanks for having me on.
Max Branstetter 2:06
Of course, of course. And we’re gonna get to those things I alluded to. But first, I want to detail the entire plot of the sequel to Inspector Gadget. So I think you I sent you to come prepared with that in advance. Sorry, that was like,
Peter Rojas 2:21
my six year old is obsessed with Inspector Gadget.
Max Branstetter 2:23
It’s coming back, it’s coming back, ya know, but before we get to Inspector Gadget, and inspector Gizmodo, you really started to I guess make a name for yourself in that space in the very early days of blogging, meaning like, you know, not too many years before that blogs were even invented RSS feeds were even a thing. When was the first time that you heard about a blog yourself and it piqued your interest?
Peter Rojas 2:52
That’s a good question. Because I think that there were there are certainly things that seem like blogs right at the time, and that you might have been reading and not realizing were a blog, you know, it’s Slashdot a blog. No, maybe not. I mean, they might not have thought of themselves as a blog at the time. But like, certainly, when it came to, you know, being the big important news tech news site like that was it was Slashdot, right? Like, that’s where, you know, we were reading and I was a technology journalist at the time was about 25 years ago. And so it’s liberating Slashdot, like every day looking for ideas for stories and things like that. I think I remember, blogging, really becoming like something that people were talking about was the New Yorker did a story about Evan Williams, and Jason Kottke. And the sort of like the blogger, kind of that early blogger world, like the blogger like the company, I remember reading that and being sort of fascinated, because, you know, as a professional journalist, the idea that you would give your writing away was, you know, like, kind of weird. But on the same hand, on the same token, like I had been in the punk scene and had done like a zine, self published like a zero ago in Xerox it after hours, you know, your friend who works there hooks you up with free, you know, photocopies and stuff like that. And this has kind of been lost to history, but he did a music site called continuous sound. And like 98. This was pre like blogging software. And I think one of things we forget is that it was actually really, really difficult to self publish on the web at the time. First of all, there will I ever read, I worked at Red Herring magazine was a big business of technology magazine in the late 90s, early 2000s. And I remember when we wanted a content management system, so we could publish it on the website that cost a million bucks, like a professional software, you know, like we paid a million dollars for that. It has less functionality than WordPress, which is free today, right? You can download for free. And so when I was doing continuous sound, I had a friend who like was better at HTML than me. And so whenever I wrote a new it was mainly like music reviews, like record reviews, because I was trying to I wanted to get like free CDs and records sent to me. And so which worked when I had like a new review to post up, I would send him that like email. In the text, and then he would copy it and then like manually edit the HTML of the page, so that it was like the top of the page. I couldn’t just go and do it myself when, you know, the early first early, you know, blog, CMS is starting to become available. And I started my first blog in after I got laid off from red herring in May of 2001. I think I started the blog, maybe a couple months later on, I did it on Dave Weiner’s software called Web blogger, very rudimentary, like, you know, it didn’t just automatically update and to do all this stuff to like, get the whole like, you know, installation to refresh. There no comments like there was it was, you know, I remember, I could upload photos to it. I
Max Branstetter 5:39
don’t remember at the time. Oh, man. So the times were bleak. Yeah,
Peter Rojas 5:43
it’s very rudimentary, but it was kind of amazing. That’s like, oh, like, I could just publish and kind of figure out like, what I you know, if I have something to say, I can just like, put it out there. You know, after I got laid off from Red Herring, 2001. And wasn’t sure what I was gonna do. I couldn’t find a job. I was like, doing the thing where I was applying for jobs. And then, you know, I’d like, you know, check in with the person to be like, hey, like, what’s going on and get a bounce back? Is the company going out of business? Like that’s, like, we hear about stuff going out of business now. But like, things would be like, going, going going and the dislike disappear? Like you’re not I mean, like just gone. It was it was just absolutely. a really difficult time. And as early as it felt, as early as we may look back and see, at the time, people felt like, well, the web, we’ve been doing this for about, you know, eight or nine years, it had a good run, but like, it’s not really working out. That’s that right? Like, I remember when I decided to do Gizmodo, I had people telling me like you’re committing career suicide, you’re not going to be respected. Right? If you want a real journalism job, doing blogging is just going to devalue you people are not going to respect you, people are going to think that, you know, you’re not serious, et cetera, et cetera. And I just fell in love with the like, the prospect of democratization of this stuff. Again, having been a punk kid in the 90s. The idea that like, you know, it’s all about DIY, do it yourself, you want to put it you want to be in a band and put on a record, don’t wait to get signed to a label, just go and you can just put a record yourself, you want to set up a show, go don’t ask for permission, just go and like, you know, go find a play, go go do it. And so I was setting up shows on my own, I was playing in bands, putting out records, like doing all that stuff, and you weren’t waiting for permission, you would just do things. And so I saw blogging is like an extension of that.
Max Branstetter 7:23
So let’s get to Gizmodo, shoutout alliteration, and Engadget. How did you decide to start these in the first place?
Peter Rojas 7:32
You know, at the time, I was just a broke writer living in New York, barely, you know, I’d saved up enough from doing red herring. I was getting by. I was picking up some freelance gigs here and there. It seemed like I couldn’t find a job. I did have this passion around this. And I was friends with Nick Denton. And so you know, people might not know but Gizmodo was the first predated Gawker Media itself. It sort of became after he started Gawker six months later than it was like mix, like, oh, there’s a company here. And we saw it as more of an experiment, Nick and I were both really passionate about blogging. He also was a blogger as well, his own personal site. And we started this one this there’s a site called Wi Fi networking news, which was a big inspiration for us. And is this guy, Glenn Fleishman, who’s still writes and is, you know, in touch with him, I think we just chatted a few months ago, actually, he did this site that he started, which was just about Wi Fi, which again, Wi Fi in the year 2000 2001 was still very new. I remember, I think I caught my first Wi Fi adapter, like PCM ca card for my laptop in like December 2001, right? In the old in the previous days, like the publishing model, right? Wi Fi would have been like one small section of like a bigger publication, right, because you couldn’t have the economics of having a publication, just focus on Wi Fi, maybe it didn’t make sense. But because of blogging, where you could have one person, and you didn’t have all this technology, you didn’t have all the costs of you know, publishing and building the site and all that stuff, stuff that even in the early web days, still, you know, had cost a decent amount of money. Suddenly, like one person who was passionate about something could go very deep into that topic and build an audience. I mean, I love that website. And I still really, I’m still kind of a Wi Fi nerd. Like, it’s, it’s one of my passions is actually like, just Wi Fi gear. And like, I almost like wish that I had more I could do with my network at home. I mean, I have like four hotspots and like, you know, like enterprise grade gear, but I’m just like, I’m always like, should I be upgrading? Should I be laying cat nine, you know, like, all this stuff, right? I just like I was really inspired by that. And so we thought like, well, what’s another, like, niche topic that like, I’m interested in that we think no one’s doing anything with that maybe could be business, right? And we’re like, we had a couple ideas about like, you know, the thing that like we settled on was gadgets because like, I really love gadgets, and how it sounds wild, but it seemed like a real niche topic at the site at the time was like super niche. there weren’t really any publications just focused on gadgets. Again, there were some enthusiast kind of community bulletin board type of sites. And there were some trade publications and things like that. But there wasn’t anything like Gizmodo at the time. And so, so we started it. We started working on in February of that year of 2002, soft launch in July, and then like, kind of formally launched in like August of 2002. And within a few weeks, we’re getting like, 50,000 readers a day. And, you know, again, coming to the magazine world, where I think red herring, it had 100,000, you know, subscribers just under that I was like, Well, this is enormous, like 50,000 readers right? Now, it’s nothing right for for a big tech publication, right. But I started to grow. And it was just me, I was the only person wrote for it. And my goal was to write, you know, like four to six things per day. And then I just found that like, as I spent more time on it, the audience was growing, I started to kind of figure out, like, how to make everything up as I went along, right? Like, I didn’t know, what were the rules of the of the game, so to speak. It was I wasn’t trying to write the stuff I had written as a journalist before because those were, you know, longer pieces that I would take sometimes, like weeks working on, and reporting and editing. It was more lightweight, it was more fun, but I wasn’t sure how playful I can be how casual I could be, what is the tone? And so really, those first six months was just me, trying to figure out what’s the voice of Gizmodo, and like, what are people interested in? What am I interested in? How do those intersect? And, you know, once I started to find my rhythm, I got really, really into it. And I realized what I had thought of as being like a bridge to finding another job down the line, like, Oh, I’ll do Gizmodo. And like, you know, maybe I’ll get get a real job. You know, it ended up being something where I just love doing it and wanted to do it full time and have that’d be my only thing. And so there were a ton of two events that kind of catalyzed me leaving Gizmodo to do you know, web blogs, Inc, with Jason Calacanis, where I ended up starting in gadget one was, I got an offer to be the technology editor for Money Magazine. You know, it was like, for me, it was like an astronomical amount of money, you know, they were gonna pay me in retrospect, it was like nothing, right? But it was like a real job. I have health insurance, I work at Time Inc, which is like one of the biggest, most prestigious publishers in the world, etc, etc. But there said, but you can’t do Gizmodo anymore. And I thought, well, I don’t want to give this up. Like, I like this more. And I think this has more potential. I had this sort of difference of opinion with Nick, where Nick thought that the model for darker media was going to be a network of blogs, each with one editor working part time, doing four to six posts a day. That was it. And I thought, you know, I want to go and do this full time, I want to go and work on this 24/7, I want to go and build a team, I want to go and build this into like a gigantic brand that is like the best in the world. And so that’s why I left?
Max Branstetter 12:55
How did you find a way in those early days to get that many readers in like a loyal audience that quickly?
Peter Rojas 13:05
isn’t very, it was a different era than today. Right? And so you couldn’t grow an audience in a lot of the usual ways that you can grow it today. There’s no, there’s no Twitter is no Facebook, no, no tick tock. It was hard to build a newsletter following like, you know, a lot of those things that, you know, tools we have today, we don’t have, I know sounds funny, but like, I really focused on two things in terms of the strategy. One was maybe three things one was creating content every day, lots of it, that people wanted to read. And my goal was every time you came to the site, to engage it, really, Gizmodo was all different, because the pacing was not as intense. But my goal was Engadget was, every time you come to the page, there’s something new for you to read. And again, at the beginning, it was just me. And I think I had days I wrote 5000 posts for engagement, the first 15 months. That’s I have days where I’d write like, 2530 fingers. No, I was exhausted. It wasn’t very healthy. To be honest, so it really focused on like, you know, having stuff and the threshold was, is do I find it interesting. Fortunately, like, my interests were very broad, like, I wanted to know about all the new phones, all the new laptops, like, you know, I and I was very, like, like, as a record collector, I had a very completest attitude. I was like, I wanted to be comprehensive and write about everything interesting every single day. That was part of it. And then the other part was, it was a bit of like a barbell approach like lots of like brief updates all day, and then have kind of signature bigger anchor things that draw people in draw, like new audiences. So it’d be like, you know, exclusive interviews Bill Gates as first person ever actually interviewed on a podcast, for example, back in the day, you know, so we are like, you know, exclusive news that we were able to get or you know, first review of something or you know, like or we’d live blogging event or something like that. So we’d have these sort of like tentpole pieces of content that would draw in new people that people would share and people would again, sharing with is happening like, person to person in like ame. Like, it’s a messaging, you know, email, like, you know, on their own blogs, things like that, and then have and so the goal was, you might hear about us because of like the Bill Gates interview, but then when he saw every site, you’re like, wow, I can come here every day, every hour every 15 minutes and have something new to read, that I’m excited about I’m interested in, it was really a strategy of, of embracing the intelligence of the audience and sort of saying, You know what, like, rather than sort of assuming that people are only casually interested in technology, which is a lot of publications took, ours was your passionate your nerd, you want the inside baseball, you want the like, rumors, you want the speculation you want, like, you just want it all, and we’re gonna give it to you. And we’re just as passionate, we’re like, in the trenches with you, we’re going to be honest with things when we’re when we don’t know something, we’re going to be honest, when we get something wrong, you know, but it’s a bit like more of a, we’re all like, hanging out and talking about this stuff together. So that was that was part of it. Then I think the other thing that we were beneficiary of was, and this was actually not as intentional as you might think, you know, we were beneficiary of like this early, like white hat SEO stuff, where, because of the way we structured the site, it was very clean, it was easy to index, we had RSS feeds, you know, we had lots of links, we were high quality, we didn’t let spam, you know, we weren’t spamming. We weren’t doing, you know, anything weird. Google really loved us. And so we had a high PageRank. And at the same time, the companies we were covering, often, like didn’t know what they were doing. They might not even had a good website. They don’t like it’s amazing to think but like, there were companies that would launch a new product, and it wouldn’t be on their website, or they launched it and they’d have like, no photos of it, no information about it. And so when, you know, there was a time where if you Googled Apple iPod, we came up above Apple, you know, that’s
Max Branstetter 16:49
I mean, that could be like your, your LinkedIn bio, by the way. It’s like, yeah, we better SEO and Apple,
Peter Rojas 16:56
not not easily repeatable these days. But, but there was a window there, we were doing pretty well.
Max Branstetter 17:01
I think that was really smart of you in those early days to like, lean in so hard, which sounds wrong, lean, it’s so hard to SEO. And like you were, you know, early days of blogging, early days of SEO, I’m sure early days of white hat SEO, what sounds like a sequel to Inspector Gadget to. But you mentioned that, like, you always want to write about interesting things. And like many of us in the podcasting or content creation space, I think many of us are naturally curious. But it’s one thing to like, be curious. It’s another thing to be like, alright, we need to find, you know, at the start four to six blogs a day, like things to write every single day, and then even more of that going forward. Like what is it that would stick out to you of like, alright, this actually deserves a post versus not worth it. You
Peter Rojas 17:49
know, the lens that we took it through was we really tried to stick to hardware. So we didn’t really write that much about software. And one reason we ended up doing Joystiq is Joystiq started off as the gaming section of Engadget and we realize like, there’s so much volume in gaming news that like, you know, if we didn’t spin this out, it would be mainly gaming related stuff. So, you know, it was it was like the threshold was, is it hardware? And is there something? Is it you know, is it a new announcement? Is there something we think is a come from a company that we think is worth covering? I think where things are tricky now is that there are so many random no brand, companies, you know, doing stuff. I think there’s also I think, with a lot of the crowdfunding stuff, it’s like, you know, how much is this worth covering? Because you don’t even know if like the authorship that ever shipped the product. And, you know, part of it was just about like, an editorial judgment. But also, there weren’t a lot. There wasn’t a lot of downside to writing about too many things. For the most part. No reader was like, Oh, I wish you hadn’t covered that, like, fourth laptop announcement yesterday. Like that. People were like, no, okay, like, they just just scrolled past, you know, if you’re not interested,
Max Branstetter 18:57
like, how dare you provide insight and entertainment on yet another breaking new thing?
Peter Rojas 19:01
Yeah. And so and so. And I think that like, it’s also, you know, again, about, like, understanding that the flow of content, you know, would vary every day. It’s not like every post was perfect. One of the rules that we had for the I wrote the first when Engadget started when I started bringing other people to write for Engadget, I had to write a style guide to kind of explain, like, what my voice was, and I realized like, Okay, one thing is, don’t try to force the humor. I wanted us to be, you know, clever and witty and insightful and a little bit irreverent. But I never wanted us to force the humor, because that was one of the things that like, there were some other, you know, technology sites, and I felt like they were always like, jokey. Sometimes it works, but sometimes it felt like oh, like, it’s like, they gotta make a joke, every single post, you know, and you’re just like, it’s just like, it’s not working. And so that was a rule. It’s like, don’t force a joke cuz there’s no joke. Don’t make a joke, write some big deal. You know, get it done. And then I think the other ones you can’t make if you’re going to make a Star Wars or a Star Trek reference. You better be worth it. You know what I mean? Like, you better be able to like, like, you can’t like do it because you’re lazy, you know? Because otherwise it’s like, everything’s like, here’s a new phone. That’s like a Star Trek Communicator, you know, or that kind of stuff, right? And after a while you’re like, that’s, it’s lazy, like as a as a journalist. And so, yeah, it’s a transparent, I think it’s Yeah, I think you’d have to go back. I think in those first couple years of Engadget, I think you’d be hard pressed to find more than like, a couple of references. I remember, like, if there’s something that was literally like, hey, we took a Star Trek Communicator and turn it into like a Bluetooth speaker, you know, like, Fine, like and avoid that. But otherwise, it was, you gotta go back this off.
Max Branstetter 20:40
When you look back now, at those, Gizmodo and Engadget journeys, what’s your favorite Star Trek wrap, and I’m just going, what’s the favorite, you think the single biggest business lesson that has helped you in the next parts of your career, when you’re going into investing and working with other companies,
Peter Rojas 20:59
I think there’s a couple of things I think, as a founder, work on things that you are, have some connection to, or some passion for, because that is what pulls you through, like the really low moments, the really low points that you’ll hit. And I will tell you, with everything I’ve started, I’ve always had this moment, within six months of starting where I’ve thought, Why did I do this, if I could just get on a plane and like flee the country and never have to like, show my face again. If like I can afford airfare, whatever. And, and I think that like what pulls you through is like no, like, this is something that I feel really lucky to work on that I’m really excited about, you know, at the end of the day that this is something that that matters to me. And so that’s my advice for people is, is never start anything cynically, you know, as when I was a VC, one of the things I always looked out for were people that I was kind of jokingly call them professional founders, they just wanted to be a startup founder, like, and I think I hate to say it, but like startup founder is, is not really a vocation in a way. Right? Like, you start the company that you start, you’re the the founder of a company that you start, you know, ideally, because there’s some problems that you care about, or some audience or some, you know, like customer problem, or some technology that you’re really passionate about. So I always was on the lookout for like people that like, you know, their dream was just to be a founder of like, somebody was like, Ah, just like, always wanted to be a founder. I’m like, No man, like, I didn’t want to be a founder, I only started the things I started because like, literally no one would hire me. And I want and no one else was going to start these things like I want to Gizmodo to exist, I wanted Engadget to exist, and like they weren’t going to exist without me. And if somebody else had done it, I would have been like, cool, like, you go and do it. Like I didn’t want to be a founder, because it’s hard, you’re anxious and stressed all the time, you have to work constantly. And you know, most of the time, it doesn’t work out. And like as if, as a VC, like I was wanting people that were like, you know, like I just, I care so much about this, that even if it fails, I’m going to be okay, because I got to work on something that I cared about a lot.
Max Branstetter 22:56
It is remarkable how many guests on this show, you know, entrepreneurs that have started really, really cool companies that have that same sort of sentiment where like, they didn’t even set out to be a startup founder. They didn’t set out to be an entrepreneur, they just ran into some pain point or issue and realize that, oh my god, there’s nothing out there doing this, like after and then after a while. It’s like hit him in the face. Like Duh, I should do this. I could create this. And so it’s really cool. You started that way as well. It’s really cool how often I use the term really cool as well. So next time you hear me say really cool, hit me up about it. I’m trying to say it last I could just edit out every time I say it, but that would be cheating. Anyway, it is really cool that there is a really cool event for content entrepreneurs called CEX Content Entrepreneur Expo, it is in my hometown of Cleveland, Ohio, it is happening May 5-7, 2024. And if you and there’s voice crack. And if you use the coupon, the coupon coupon code: MAX100. You can get $100 off the price of any in person ticket. That’s MAX100. And the URL is CEX.Events. Now, let’s get Rapid with Rojas. You know in the name of forced humor, let’s wrap up with some Rapid-Fire Q&A. You ready for it? Okay. Yeah. All right. What is to this day could be from any era. A gadget that when you first got your hands on it, you were like, This is life changing?
Peter Rojas 24:38
Oh, Treo 600. Palm Treo 600 was the first like really great smartphone. I think. I mean, people have different opinions. But you know, I could do email on it. I could, you know, surf the web. I could run some games. It was just like 2003 it came out. I just remember. It could play videos. Yeah, music, it was all clunky, right? He had to sync it with a desktop and you know, all this stuff, but you could see the vision of where things were gonna go with that. And I just remember that being really life changing for me when again, as somebody who worked all the time, if I could check my email in bed, like just get up and just, you know, do that. I was like, oh, like, now I can sort of keep I can like, leave my desk because I can be out and like, if something happens if like, there’s some crazy breaking news story, like I can deal with it and get home, I couldn’t post to Gizmodo from the phone. That was a little bit too beyond the capabilities of the device, but I can kind of stay on top of things. And I really loved it. And you know, it was it was a I just like, I loved that phone.
Max Branstetter 25:47
It sounds like you, you kind of like yeah, that’s really cool. What is the number one thing to do in Peru not named Machu Picchu. Oh,
Peter Rojas 25:57
you gotta go to Arequipa, which is where my father’s from it’s just a beautiful colonial city lot of to call the La Cuidad Blanca it’s like a lot of white volcanic stone is made from and just absolutely beautiful and sort of like a hidden not really hidden but like definitely like the kind of a cultural capital of Peru. And I don’t know anybody who’s been there who hasn’t been like, oh my god, this is one of the most beautiful places I’ve ever been.
Max Branstetter 26:22
Oh, your pronunciation is much better than mine. So I’m not going to try to pronounce it. However, I will Google that and put it in the show notes and and hopefully go there one day and say, Oh, this is the best place I’ve ever been. And then it’s great. Last one. If you could star in a video game, what character would you be?
Peter Rojas 26:37
Oh, wow, that’s a that’s a tough one. I feel like most video games you end up getting killed a lot. But I’m still trying to finish Red Dead Redemption 2 you know, like five and a half years later, there’s something about like that, that world. I’m not I’m not like a big like cowboy guy, you know, or Western guy. But I think there’s something about like the richness of that world where I just, I just love, like when I’ve had opportunities to like really immerse myself in that game. There’s something like, really great about, like, kind of living in that you kind of feel some of the slower pace of that world.
Max Branstetter 27:09
I guess, the creativity and the beauty of that seems off the charts. Peter, thank you so much. Just thank you for all you’ve done and, and making time today and your endless curiosity in the gadget world and beyond. Where’s your number one go to place for people to contact you or did get in touch with you if they want to connect online?
Peter Rojas 27:28
Just Roj.as. That’s my personal website. And it’s pretty easy to reach me there. Perfect
Max Branstetter 27:33
Roj.as no, that doesn’t work out that way. Alright,
Peter Rojas 27:37
Roj.as you know what, you don’t want to say it, you just want to spell
Max Branstetter 27:41
it. And then final thoughts. One line of parting advice for other aspiring entrepreneurs out there.
Peter Rojas 27:47
Be realistic about like, what it is you really want. And what you’re willing to put up with. The thing I always tell people is, you know, don’t BS yourself about when things are working when they’re not. Because, you know, this is a sort of an iPhone for myself for you. Like, you can’t let go of something that’s not working and you spend too much time on it. And you know, sometimes you have to like cut your losses and move on. And it’s difficult. But you know, I think one of the things about being an entrepreneur is that, you know, ideally you get multiple times to try things and everybody I know is every successful entrepreneur I know has had, you know, multiple failures along the way.
Max Branstetter 28:23
Fail-tastic. Thank you, Peter, for coming on the podcast, sharing your incredible stories from all across the Internet and off the internet. And thank you, Wild Listeners, for tuning in to another episode. If you want to hear more Wild stories like this one, make sure to hit Subscribe or Follow the Wild Business Growth Podcast on your favorite podcast platforms, as well as check out the video versions on YouTube. That’s @MaxBranstetter. You can also find us on Goodpods. And for any help with podcast production, you can learn more at MaxPodcasting.com and sign up for the Podcasting to the Max newsletter. That is it MaxPodcasting.com/Newsletter. Very original. It’s slash newsletter not slash newsletter very original. Until next time, let your business Run Wild…Bring on the Bongos!!
