This is the full transcript for Episode #362 of the Wild Business Growth podcast featuring Katrina Markoff – Top 10 Chocolatier, Violet Flame Chocolate. You can listen to the interview and learn more here. Please note: this transcript is not 100% accurate.
00:00
If you trust your imagination, let it be wild, let it go where it must go and just see what happens. I think amazing things will come to you.
00:24
What’s going on? That’s as high pitch as I get. Welcome back to Wild Business Growth. I am your host Max Branstetter of MaxPodcasting. This is where you hear wild entrepreneurs turning wild ideas into wild growth. And today’s wild entrepreneur for episode 362 is Katrina Markoff. She is a chocolatier who is the founder of Violet Flame Chocolate. And before that,
00:53
the founder of Vosges and she has been named everything from the top 10 chocolatiers in the world to Forbes 50 over 50. In this episode, we talk all the things that go into creatively making chocolate, how to put your heart and your truest self into whatever you’re creating and the best bite of food Katrina has ever had.
01:23
is Katrina. Enjoy the show.
01:32
Already we are here with Katrina Markoff, founder of Violet Flame Chocolate. I don’t know how I just mispronounce flame, but we’re gonna keep it in. someone who’s been named one of the top 10 chocolatiers in the world. That’s pretty cool. think every little chocolate loving kid wants to grow up to do that. But Katrina, thank you so much for joining. How you doing today? Great, how about you? I’m good, I’m good. I’m great before. And we had the best pre-chat ever because I found out, well, I knew this, but.
02:02
I knew you’re from Indiana originally, and you know, there’s maybe some IU fans in your family, plenty of friends IU fans as well. And so we were just talking about 2025 2026 national champion Hoosiers, which will take the duration of this podcast. So sorry for anybody tuning in for podcast for chocolate. But no. Before we get to your chocolate journey, I heard a fun fact.
02:26
Can you tell or estimate how many three-star Michelin restaurants you’ve been to? Oh, that’s a good question. I’ve never been asked that. A lot? If a lot was a number. No, we don’t need to break out the calculator. a lot was a number. Oh my gosh. OK. I think I’ve been to every single one in Paris. And then Michel Bras. I would say.
02:55
25, 23, I don’t know. what, yeah, that’s okay. mean, I’ve been to 26, but like, what is it? What got you interested in experiencing those, you know, top notch restaurants? I think I love experiential sensory interactive. It’s this play between
03:23
mind and body, expectations and the experience in the present moment, surprise, you know, a little bit of like fear and wonder mixed in creates like this, I don’t know, carnival experience. just like feels like so many new things. And I think the chef and the team love what they do so much that they care so much.
03:53
about what they’re doing at that level, that you’re really seeing the insight of the person’s own energy into the dish, you know, hopefully. And there’s a lot of pride and care. And I think I just loved all of the componentry to that. I mean, you used a lot of beautiful words there, but I think the one that sticks out to me is carnival. Like there’s so much vivid imagery that comes when you say carnival. And then when you think about that in terms of a restaurant or food, it’s really, really fun.
04:23
Thought provoking. There’s of course this allure to Michelin star restaurants and then, yeah, I know you’re based in Chicago, you know, the super popular show, The Bear, you know, covers their attempts to get a Michelin star and like the hunt and ups and downs for that. Based on the, you know, 24, 25 minute three star Michelin restaurants you’ve been to, were there any moments that you were like, wow, okay, this, like, this is why this place deserves the three stars.
04:52
Oh yeah. And I would say like, you know, I feel like Michelin probably sold out a bit as it’s broadened its scope in a way. Because what I understood at Michelin was when you’re at a three star or even a one star, there was an expectation of like fine dining, of linens, of service, of care, of true hospitality. Like you would be treating a dear friend coming to your home.
05:22
maybe more than a dear friend. Like it felt so special and elevated from not just the food, but like the service and the plates and the glassware and everything had a story and they wanted to impress you. want, know, like not to say that, like that doesn’t happen now with others, but it’s just like the level of hospitality was exalted. I mean, I felt like it was
05:51
intentioned for the highest experience with service and stemware and, you know, flatware and every component was important. And I like I sort of love rituals so much that when you’re using really fancy, beautiful glassware and silverware, it sort of creates a moment of importance. Not to say that
06:19
casual fun dining isn’t great for a conversation, but for me, this was like a ritual. So for me, I wanted it to be really fancy and special and full of pride with what they were delivering. So I think at the best ones, you would have a hotel attached. And so when I traveled, I often wanted to have that combination of the hotel with the food because
06:48
It felt more like a complete experience of lifestyle of.
06:55
delivering, I guess, these wonderful sensory pleasures that we can have in life. And when you’re, you now I work so much, I rarely take moments for that. So I feel so blessed that I had that experience of traveling and just exploring these restaurants. And really it was not just Europe, but a lot in France, like a lot in Europe, but a lot in France. And it just, I don’t know, it made me think that I always need to be striving for
07:25
a goal of perfection, which I’ll never get. But like, you keep aspiring for that, like, it keeps the experience fresh. So I don’t even know if I answered your question. I did I ask a question on it? No, okay.
07:44
Let’s get to something special and extra special to you and so many, which is chocolate. So of all the foods and tastes and freshness out there, why chocolate? What made you in love enough about chocolate to start a business and now multiple businesses behind? If I say it, the first time I had chocolate, I had a Hershey’s almond bar and I didn’t like
08:13
the chocolate part because it tastes like butyric acid or something. I was like, but I’ll eat the, I like nuts. I like textured nuts, so I ate that. But I never liked chocolate. And then I got to France and like all the chocolate in France, they like bitter. They like more tannin, they like more bitter. And I was like, oh, I don’t know if I really like that. But it’s kind of interesting, but I don’t know if I really like that. And then I started, had one day of
08:41
chocolate making in cooking school. And then I got to work at a bully with some chocolate making these beautiful chocolate cylinders. And somehow I started to see different types of cacao experiences in Sicily where they would grind it and they would they would connect it to the original story of how the Mayans would prepare it. And that’s when I started to realize cacao had this really
09:09
strong history of working with as a plant medicine, heart opening as a way to elevate yourself to, you know, they called it food of the gods because they believed that you could travel to be with the gods, their gods above. And I was like, whoa, this is very powerful. What is this plant? You know, and then I thought, oh my gosh, it was served on gold chalices, but that wasn’t even the important part. was the drink that was the important part. And I think that story kind of like
09:38
resonated and hooked me in to be like, is what I’m going to work with. Like I’m specifically going to work with this. And then it was just like a duty almost like an honor to work with it. So I just, I can’t give it up. So, well, first of all, you dropped the name, Bully. Am I saying that right? Il Bully, which was looking, I was like, why does that sound familiar? And I was looking it up and at a time it was like known as like the top restaurant in the world, right? Like it was,
10:07
you know, like top of the top. So you’re getting all those experiences you studied at and I have terrible French part of my excuse my French, the code I’m blue. Which how would you say that, by the way? Perfect. Look, look, look, look, look, look, We’ll see, know, listeners, viewers can vote on who did it better. I think, see, those incredible experiences, but then it’s like a whole different game starting your own business. like what? Yeah. What do you think started you off like?
10:37
on the right foot in terms of your first, I mean, like your big chocolate business, which was Vosges. You know, I think I was, I played a lot of sports as a kid, pretty much a lot, every one of them. And I really loved horseback riding and I started, I really wanted to compete with Equestrian Sports and I found a trainer who was really strict, like very strict. And we worked really hard and we worked hard for her in a lot of ways, you know.
11:06
And I think I was just used to like, like you have to work hard for things that you want. And I wasn’t afraid of that. And because like you were never really good enough at anything you did in any sport, cause you might have talent, but like there’s always so much more you can do. So I think with that kind of like background, you’re okay with failing a bunch. You’re okay with like screwing it up until you figure it out, but you’re going to figure it out.
11:36
So it doesn’t crush your ego to screw it up so much. And my whole family is basically entrepreneurs. So it’s like a figure it out culture. It’s like you must find a way. And there is always a way, especially if you believe there’s a way, you will find a way. And you can tap into finding things quickly when you need them, if you believe you can find them, because that’s just the only option. And I think that’s what makes entrepreneurs like
12:05
able to do this type of work because it is so much stumbling. It is so much not knowing and figuring it out and trying to do better, do better, do better. So.
12:18
I just started to feel like there were so many epiphanies that were happening when I started thinking about how to do chocolate because of my experience traveling around the world, studying food in Europe and Southeast Asia and Australia. And because I felt like the US was behind in the innovation of food and in fine dining and restaurants in general, but also in CPG, it just felt like it all made sense to me that this was going to be.
12:47
you know, a slam dunk in my head. I guess it’s like, of course it’s going to work because well, who doesn’t love chocolate? And it’s just a little bit of a shift on it, you know, with what I did at Vogue. And now this is another shift, which I think is timely around, you know, energetics and consciousness and food and how to work with chocolate again. That’s a ritual to connect with yourself. I think that’s really important to know who you are so you figure out what you’re meant to do.
13:17
I totally hear you on the athlete part. I mean, like, yeah, played a bunch of sports growing up and I, my favorites were always baseball and football. And I always think back to like football, and this is an excuse to bring up IU’s championship football team again, but football, like, I just always think back to discipline, like it teaches you so much discipline and, and focus and, you know, sticking to consistent schedule with your training and all that. But then baseball is all about failure. Like what you’re saying, like the whole
13:47
thing where it’s like, if you fail seven out of 10 times at the plate, like you’re a 300 hitter, like you go into the hall of fame if you do that. So like, I always take lessons from sports as well. It’s really cool to hear like that fueled your journey there. But before we get to Violet Flame, I’m just curious, like at the biggest that Voj got to when you were leading it and you you started to get all the awards and accolades, which I can’t say, accolades, like top 10 chocolate tier in the world and.
14:16
all the features. What’s the biggest thing that you think worked well in making that company a success? I think storytelling, think innovation, I think a lot of love, but when you put your own signature into something, I feel like the world rewards you for that.
14:46
people can magnetize to people that put themselves out there and that’s like their individuality. it’s like people love that because I think they feel free to be their own person too. And maybe it sort of represents what they’re feeling as well. like I just did a lot of different things with chocolate in regards to ingredients, of course, initially, but then just like the storytelling and the sensory experience, I think I’m so fascinated with the.
15:14
human’s body’s ability to feel things and hear things and smell things and melt and sensation. And I think I had enough time alone as a kid, like in my backyard kind of thing where I really felt those things in big ways. And I wasn’t as distracted with TV and like video games and things like that, that I could. And so I think it’s almost like
15:43
It’s transformation in your mouth, you know, with chocolate. And I really talked a lot about that at Vosges and of course at Violet Flame too. I think it’s that. And I also was having fun and I also felt like I was being a little bit of a renegade because what I was doing with this was bacon and chocolate and wasabi and all that stuff was not being done at all. People thought it sounded disgusting in fact. But I was so confident that it was so cool to bring two opposite forces together.
16:12
that it made it intriguing and interesting and daring and fun. And you felt like you were having a little adventure. And I just loved it. And I thought, oh my gosh, people can open their minds to new ideas. How can the world be so much better if we’re more curious? And then it become something bigger than just like making chocolate with an interesting greeting. was like.
16:36
Yeah, but what’s the real point of doing that? Oh, it’s for curiosity. Why is curiosity important? Oh, because then we don’t judge so much. Maybe we’re more empathic. Maybe we’re more give us a little give a little time to get to know someone or something to understand the perspective instead of being so staunch in your in your own ways, boots and whatever. So it became this mix of things that wasn’t just a chocolate brand. And I think for me, that’s what really drove me because I didn’t want to just
17:05
make money or just, I don’t know. just, I wanted it to be part of like my own journey. Yeah. Your own signature. And it’s so much, so much more than chocolate and your examples with bacon and wasabi and these seemingly weird combinations. You just blew my mind. Cause like, I totally forgot about this memory and you brought it back up of, I had a study abroad semester in London and my parents came to visit. One of the places we went was Brussels. And then we did like a day trip to a Bruges.
17:34
And there was like this little chocolate shop and the two pieces of chocolate that I remember and still stick with me to this day now that you reminded me where there was a tequila chocolate, like a chocolate with like a little tequila dropper that’s meant to be how a tequila and then there was a one that tasted like cigars and it’s just like those are so out there and unique, but they’re so memorable. And of course that’s the one that like my parents and I were like, well, let’s try these. So there’s just beauty in doing absolutely like outside the box stuff like that.
18:04
and unique combinations.
18:09
That outside the box and creativity and telling your own story flows really well into Violet Flame, which is your company now. And if you check out your website and the chocolates you have available, like I’ve never seen chocolates like this before. Like the truffles, they’re just beautiful and like they’re works of art. And then there’s, you have these things called chaos boards. I had never seen that before. For anybody who’s not familiar with that, can you share what those are? I was going through like a lot of chaos in my life too. And I thought, you know, a lot of times
18:39
the greatest innovation and the greatest downloads come from chaos because you have to try to find order in it. You have to find the gold. So these are large, they’re about seven and a half inches by seven and a half inches or so. And they have a chocolate base and then they have different large inclusions because I always felt like I needed to have larger inclusions than what I did in my prior.
19:04
company and I wanted these big chunks and beautiful fruits. So there’s a dark fruit one, there’s a sunshine board that has three different types of citruses, one from Japan, one from Corsica, one from France, and then they have gold leaf on them. And they’re meant to be broken and shared and the process of breaking something, you find something in. So that’s the pondering on that.
19:31
collection when you taste them. Yeah. So even that has like an incredible, you know, an incredibly personal story behind it on that personal note. like how much these days are you like hand making these chocolates versus do have a team that does it? Like, can you just give us a peek behind the production process? Yeah. So like it’s a really small team, like a four, five people making the chocolate, but I
19:58
make all the ganache, all the centers and the team helps me like make them into the truffles. We work a lot with bots while we’re making the chocolates, like, for example, when we’re melting the chocolates, I ask the team to kind of come in and bring all the things they need to melt the worries and the fears and stuff and like combine it so that because a lot of times chocolate doesn’t always taste as great as it can if somebody’s in a bad mood, both the person tasting and the person making and.
20:26
I noticed that early on when like sometimes these batches wouldn’t turn out right. couldn’t understand why. If the batch woke up on the wrong side of the bed. Yeah, no, exactly. So like if there’s a cleansing component to starting the day and then moving into the gratitude moment in the chocolate making. So I am teaching that and that takes a lot of my time because it’s really important to me and I want to start measuring.
20:56
the frequency really of things before and after as we do this work of both people and chocolate and try to see what kind of effects you can have when you start to groom your thoughts or have a place for them to go, like the things that need to be kind of moved. Because Einstein would say that energy can’t be created, but it can be transformed. It can’t be created, it can be destroyed, but it can move. So working with that.
21:23
with people because you have to deal with people. That’s the hardest part of a business is the people. The ideas are easy, know, like supply chain can be relatively easy, but it’s just people. So that’s why I want to keep this really small and like boutique and, know, really be like the personal chocolatier for people, but not like, I don’t want to like lower my standards to like just.
21:49
haven’t made a price point for a particular retailer or whatever, because I did that before and I don’t wanna do that again. Like I just, you know, I wanna focus on the craft. So that’s a big different approach from last time. Last time, what did you learn about the ability to scale kind of from a scale to a bigger fashion? At least for me and my ADD, but like I think I’m better with a smaller team.
22:19
that is aligned in the heart and like the right intentions. Like I think I was so focused on like getting big and being global. And like, I just, I sort of started to drink the wrong drink or something. And like, I’ve got off track. I don’t know if it was my ego or I was just, I lost my center compass and like, it just,
22:47
And I didn’t correct it, you know, and I, now like I have that opportunity again to sort of create again. And the business is growing so much faster than of course, Vos did, but because of course I’ve done this for a while and kind of know what I’m doing and I’m clearer. And, but it’s not just about, you know, it’s, I really want to deliver a beautiful product every time, a beautiful experience. And so to do that, I need to keep it like slow enough.
23:16
you know, that the team really understands all the nuance of things because it really is a combination of a million details. And that becomes culture eventually, but it doesn’t happen when you tell someone once, twice or three times. It’s like showing, showing, showing, watching, showing and having people that are open to learning and like to, you know, feedback.
23:46
So I do want to stay very close to the chocolate. So that’s why I am there making it. What are the things that you’re doing that you think are helping this business grow so much faster? I am trying lots of different things, which is great because so many people are fractional now. Like you can try different.
24:12
projects with different people that don’t need to be a full-time employee. You can try them and see, Hey, this is person they’re going to do the project, which is great. Do I want them to do another project? it a fit? Did I learn enough that I actually don’t need to have the expenses of full-time expense, but can just dip in when I need some help for a small project. think I had so many employees at Boge that like you got to, you know, it was like,
24:41
Were they all really necessary? No. But you you get into these tight spots where you need extra hands and then you just hire someone instead, just like do a little project and that’s it. Like that’s I think some of the learnings I’ve had now and just setting up the business to be more profitable and more sort of also like really good energy, too, because like sometimes people don’t fit with you and then it’s pain to, you know, transition.
25:08
For those watching on video or for those listening, we’re having incredible cat cameos here. Katrina’s cat. And then also like I’ve learned a lot about like simplification. I don’t need as many skews. Where is innovation placed? And that’s why I have a club. So I do this this Cacao Spiritus Club where I work with these different ingredients, created a special ritual. I work with special botanicals, like real plants, like cuttings of plants.
25:38
Like again, to like, when you think something else is beautiful, a beautiful plant, an ingredient, you start to see more beauty around you and inside you. So like, I’m all about trying to find that beauty every month and put it into the club. And that Cacao Spiritist Club is where all the, not all, but like most of the innovation is coming. Yeah. It’s such like an inspiring and innovative culture you’ve had. And it’s, it’s really cool. And like, nice to hear that.
26:07
you know, you’ve done the business thing multiple times now, and this is closer to what you personally and truly want to be doing now. So it’s just awesome to hear.
26:22
I do wanna wrap up with some rapid fire Q and A. You ready for it? Yeah. Yep. All right. Let’s get wild. Okay. I heard you were named after a superhero. Can you share that story? I wasn’t named after a superhero. I was named after a, like my mom was watching a soap opera. I heard on another interview that
26:51
It was something about like your dad in a comic book character? No, I mean, I made my son after Atreyu from the Neverending Story. I remember that. Oh, OK. I don’t know where you got that. don’t remember that. I don’t know. Maybe that was a different Atreyu. I think of myself as a superhero. Maybe it wasn’t superhero. Maybe it the different characters. OK, well, that was great research, Max.
27:20
And then, let me know if this one’s true then. I heard that when you were little, you would sometimes talk to plants. I did, I Okay, that one’s true. All right. That is true. That is very true. What advice do you have for anybody talking to plants? I’m not making fun of it. It’s awesome. I think it’s a way of like talking to your higher self and it’s a way of connecting with the natural world.
27:49
And it’s funny if you let your imagination, if you trust your imagination, let it be wild, let it go where it must go and just see what happens. I think amazing things will come to you. So that’s why I do it. I wish I did it more. I really need to move to the country. More trees, plants. Yeah. All right. And then last one. Just first thing that pops in your head. What is the best bite of anything you’ve ever had? Non-chocolate.
28:18
You know what popped in my head? There’s a restaurant that’s been in Chicago for a long time called the VEC. And it just popped in my head. They made this like, Talagio, like focaccia bite. I just remember the first time I had Talagio and I was like, oh, this is great. And then I made a chocolate with Talagio. I loved it so much. What’s Talagio? It’s a type of Italian cheese.
28:46
That’s cave-aged and it is very pungent rind. But if you take that off, you get to the creamy center of it. It’s just paste. It’s just incredible. And it’s really good with dark chocolate and walnuts. I used to make a chocolate with it. yeah, that was one of my favorite bites. I want to try it. Okay. Next trip is to Chicago then. Perfect. Well, Katrina, thank you so much. She’s huge fan of what you’re doing and love.
29:16
creativity behind it. anybody wants to check out, check out the violet flame website. What’s the URL? Oh, violet flame chocolate.com. Perfect. Okay. I just didn’t want to mess that up. And then I know they can connect with you on Instagram. last thing, final thoughts. Is there just like a one quote or words of wisdom to end with stages yours? When you feel overwhelmed or like having decision paralysis, like deep breath.
29:45
humming or really cold water on your face and then walk and then try again.
29:55
That’s it.
30:00
So the thing where I thought Katrina was named after a superhero. Yeah, that was my bad. Shout out Kara Duffy and the Powerful Ladies podcast. I clearly got distracted while listening and prepping for this interview and got their voices mixed up. So bad, bad Max. Anyway, thank you so much Katrina. Thank you for sharing your chocolate creations with the world and with us today.
30:28
And thank you, Wild listeners, for tuning into another episode. Make sure to subscribe to Wild Business Growth, wherever you listen or watch. If it’s on YouTube, it’s @MaxBranstetter on YouTube for the video versions. And everything else is at maxpodcasting.com. Until next time, let your business run wild. Bring on the bongos.
