Full Transcript – Harry Morton – Wild Business Growth Podcast #338

This is the full transcript for Episode #338 of the Wild Business Growth podcast featuring Harry Morton – Podcast Production Visionary, Lower Street. You can listen to the interview and learn more here. Please note: this transcript is not 100% accurate.

Harry Morton 0:00
I think the British accent helps.

Max Branstetter 0:16
A Cleveland, Ohio accent is pretty good. I’ve heard many say as well. Welcome back to Wild Business Growth. This is your place to hear from a new entrepreneur every single Wednesday morning turning Wild ideas into Wild growth. I’m your host, Max Branstetter, Founder & Podcast Producer at MaxPodcasting That almost sounds melodic sometimes when I say it like that. And this is episode three, three. And then if you complete a three with like, two more semi circles, 8 338, and today’s guest is Harry Morton. Harry is one of my biggest podcast production inspirations that rolls off the tongue. And He is the Founder & CEO of Lower Street, an amazing podcast production company. I’ll just rattle off some of these stats real quick. They’ve worked with over 130 podcasts produced over 7,000 episodes, have over 13 million downloads, have a team of over 30 and some of the brands they’ve worked with include PepsiCo, HP, Adobe and Booking.com Booking.Yeah Couldn’t resist there in this episode, we talk the in the podcast business, in the out of the podcast business, everything from Harry’s Wild journey to the trends in podcasting you need to pay attention to, and even what podcasting may look like in 100 years. It is Podcast Harry. Enjoyyyyyyy the showwwwwww! Aaaaaaalrightyyyyyyyy we are here with one of my favorite podcast people, and I’ll call you one of my favorite people, people as well. New Title Harry Morton, Founder & CEO of lower Street, just an absolutely pioneering game changing company in the podcast space, especially for brands, where we’ll talk all sorts of things, podcasting inside and out. Harry, thank you so much for joining. This is a real treat. Been looking forward to catching up for a while. How

Harry Morton 2:15
you doing today? I’m doing well, it’s like humid here in Somerset in England, so I’m a little bit clammy, but otherwise very comfortable and well, thank you.

Max Branstetter 2:23
Good. We have a clammy, hairy on our hands. You know, everybody’s worst night. That’s

Harry Morton 2:27
definitely TMI, but there you go. You got

Max Branstetter 2:30
it. We made it 40 seconds into the interview before TMI was pulled up. So appreciate that. But I have to share a little embarrassing story on my part where I got a little clammy. Is, well, first of all, I shout out my clients, Ann and April from forthright people. They interviewed you in their show marketing smarts years ago 2022 which is now known as strategic counsel by forthright business. So that was the first time I heard your name and worked on that episode. I was like, Wow, this guy’s pretty brilliant. I should pay attention to him. Then you and I actually met for the first time at Podcast Movement in Denver in 2023 and I just remember we, I mean, I went to some of your sessions, and it was great. But I remember it was like heading back from, oh no, I was heading back from a happy hour one time. We just kind of passed and and the lobby, and I introduced myself again and said, hey. And I don’t remember what I said, but I remember it was exactly after a happy hour, and I was kind of feeling a little bit and I don’t know what I did, I don’t think it was that bad. I just remember the next morning being like, wow, Harry probably thinks I’m a drunken idiot. So I apologized on LinkedIn, which I had never apologized on LinkedIn before. That’s something else. So thanks for bearing with

Harry Morton 3:33
me there. Absolutely, this is great you. I mean, you made an absolute fool of it. No kidding, you didn’t. But yeah, no, it’s good meeting

Max Branstetter 3:42
you. Yeah, back at you. So it’s amazing This interview is happening, but so before we get to lower street, I find it really interesting about your background and looking at some of the similarities and differences for like, my journey in podcast production so far, and I’m somebody who’s, like, totally self taught in the audio and podcasting world, and I’ve always wondered, because sometimes people, when they start working with us, are like, I us, are like, wait a second, so like, you didn’t, like, you never studied, you know, audio engineering or podcast or anything like that. You know, like, I didn’t go, I went to school for marketing, entrepreneurship. So very different. Obviously, some overlap, for your standpoint, bath spa University, which, yeah, coolest name ever. Did a lot of work in music technology, studying audio engineering as well. I’ve always wondered, like, what are those classes like? Like, what do you learn when you actually go to study that side of the audio

Harry Morton 4:27
world? It’s like a technical degree. It’s like an engineering kind of degree. So you’re kind of, we, we learned how to build certain kinds of software with a program called Max MSP, so we can make our own like, audio processing tools, right through to, you know, how to operate a big mixing desk and record an album for a band kind of thing, so, and then a ton of, like post production work, so sound for TV, Foley, you know, all these sorts of things. To be honest, it was just like what I enjoyed doing. So I went to school to do that because it was fun. You know, in retrospect, I think the self taught route is every bit as good for getting. And the skills that you need. Like, I didn’t leave university with, like, an incredibly employable degree in my backpack. Like, I probably just spent a ton of money, just like, having fun in a studio, which I don’t regret for that reason, because it was fun, but, like, yeah, it was an interesting kind of way to learn. But I’ve learned just as much outside of it being a nerd on the internet, so I think that’s equally valid.

Max Branstetter 5:21
Well, credit to you for going to school to study something that you thought would be fun, because I think so many of us get in the trap of like, All right, let’s, let’s study something that’s going to get us a job and make us money. So you kind of like, from the get go or against the status quo, and I imagine it brushed up on your your audio engineering skills as well. But what’s like a class or, like, a project you did from that experience, you’d say is formational or foundational to you to this day.

Harry Morton 5:45
Good one. I think that the most fun ones were the ones we were just given the broadest brief. And it was just like, like, here’s a sample. You have to take this sample and make a track out of it and do it in this studio and showcase your ability to use, or basically use all the gear. And so you just like, Cool. I’ll show that I know how to use a computer. Compressor and all the EQ and I’m going to use, like, ribbon microphones and these things. Another that it was that kind of like, I guess, without being able to conjure up a very specific project that that I got a lot from, it was more just like, the freedom to go make whatever you want, that creativity thing, like, that’s really what’s been big for me for forever. Like, I’m a dreamer. I like, just like, coming up with ideas and experimenting and trying stuff out. So I’d say that aspect for sure, is what stuck

Max Branstetter 6:29
with me, is that a personality trait that you’ve always had, that dreamer

Harry Morton 6:33
massively. Yeah, I spend a lot of time thinking and imagining and doodling. That’s where my brain likes to live, you know.

Max Branstetter 6:44
So speaking of dreaming, let’s get to a street of the lower variety, as it’s called a lower Street. Lower Street. Media, really, really cool, branded podcast, agency, which, if you look at some of your numbers now, it’s like, you know, you’ve worked on over 100 shows, you’ve got 10s of millions of downloads across them, some of the biggest names, as far as far as companies as well as individuals, now that you’ve worked with. So I’m just here to hype you up, and I’m gonna sign off now. So thanks, Harry, no, but really, really cool thing that you’ve dreamt of and built, what was it in the first place that in this audio and creativity world got you focused on, like, there’s something about this podcast route, I really

Harry Morton 7:21
like, I went to school for audio engineering, like we said, I went then went to work in a studio, a post production facility in SoHo in central London, and working for this company that did sound for TV adverts. So we were doing, like, Colgate toothpaste and like a bunch of banks and all this kind of stuff. Like sound for TV spots. I was a very junior engineer. So I didn’t, you know, lay my hands on anything that made the TV, but I did learn about the business behind what was going on there purely by being in it and observing it. And I did that for a couple of years. Absolutely hated it. Ended up getting fired because I messed up. I lost we had, there was a brand called Domestos here in the UK, which is like a bleach product. And they had this, like, bunch of adverts in the in the kind of late naughties, early, early teens, which were these, like, I guess, like Chicago gangster bacteria that lived inside your toilet, and you’d use Domestos to kill them and eradicate them. And we did all the sound for that. It was like a fun thing, but I, my job was to, like, back up all of the recordings that would happen in those sessions so that it could be saved and brought back for the next time that the client came in. And I stuffed that up one day, all of those recordings were lost. Hours of like, client material was gone, and they had to get them in again. And they were like, Harry, you’re gone. See you later. And I was like, Okay, sweet. And so I left. And then, you know, I thought that was, like, this just Earth shatteringly awful thing. And I thought I was trying to figure out, like, where I was gonna go next, like how I was gonna continue this sort of career path. And I ended up actually just pivoting and working in marketing and sales. So I got a sales gig, worked that for six or seven actually, not that specific gig, but like sales in general, for six or seven years. And it was in that period that I really started to understand business. I had known from a very young age, similar to you, I guess, doing entrepreneurship at university, I’d kind of known from a very young age, like 14 ish, probably, that I wanted to do my own thing. I wanted to have be a business owner and run stuff. And I’d had all these sort of dreams of, like web development agencies and all these kinds of things in the past. But then by working in sales for a long time, I’d really kind of cut my teeth on like, how to how to sell, how to speak to enterprise people, how to deal with marketers, like what they care about, what they’re trying to achieve, all these sorts of things. And through those years, I did a bunch of traveling and worked abroad and did all a bunch of stuff, but I was really spending from probably 2010 onwards. So just like all of my time listening to podcasts to educate myself on how to do all this stuff, and like, what business I was going to start, and how I would go about it, technically and tactically. And it was sort of through that process and that period that the kind of light bulb slowly went off of like, Hey, I’m educating myself in podcasting. I know how to speak to brands. I understand audio. And I kind of, and at this time, I was, like, really deep into listening to the StartUp podcast from gimlet media as. Were sort of being built and then bought by Spotify. And that was, like, hugely inspiring to me. And I was like, I looked around outside of gimlet, and I was like, actually, I have something to offer here. Like, and there’s, you know, you’re young and you’re probably overly there’s too much hubris kicking around, a bit a bit of a bit of ego. And I can do, I can do this. Like, these, these guys aren’t doing that great of a job. I can figure this out. Yeah, it was, it was through that period that period, I was like, okay, cool. I know I want to do my thing. I want to start an agency. I have this skill set. I can see an opportunity here. And so that’s, that’s kind of what, what started me on this path. And it was just like, just me in my bedroom, in my underpants to begin with, like, emailing people going, Hey, can I help you with your podcast? And it’s slowly built and built, and here we are nine years later. Well, at least you were wearing underpants. I sometimes, yeah,

Max Branstetter 10:44
this is already the the TMI episode, but I’m shook because, first of all, I’ve never heard of bacteria described as Chicago gangsters. So that’s a little intimidating

Harry Morton 10:54
to begin with. Look them up on YouTube. They are. They’re classics.

Max Branstetter 10:57
You might get a knock at the door after that, but it’s really an inspiring journey of knowing that, like you said, like a lot of us, and many of us who tune into this this podcast, have that hankering from an early age of like, I’d love to create something myself, and so it’s always really cool when that becomes a reality. But obviously it’s a very, very scary thing to do what, uh, scary rhyming with Harry couldn’t resist what was like your first step, I guess, to actually turn that into a real company.

Harry Morton 11:26
It was really an organic process, to be honest. I think I always intended from the very beginning for it to be a company like when I started it, I decided to create a company, not just be a sole trader, as it’s labeled here in the UK, just like a freelancer, basically

Max Branstetter 11:38
trader, like T R A, D, I track that is T, R, a, i, t, O, I like, that’s kind of

Harry Morton 11:45
not a traitor, although, you know, who knows. But no, ask the client. No, I’m just going a sole trader is just like an independent freelance person, basically here in the case. But I set it up very specifically from the beginning as a company with the intention of growing a team. And I would say, when I sent emails in from my bedroom in my underpants, I would say, we in the emails, like we do this for clients and stuff. And it was very much just me. And it was kind of a fake it, till you make it kind of kind of deal in the first few years,

Max Branstetter 12:13
there you and your underpants, though, I’ll give you credit, correct

Harry Morton 12:17
Absolutely. And my wife, who, like, was, you know, sitting beside me when I was sending all of those emails. So yeah, it was, and it was really an organic growth from there. So it was intentional, in a sense, I want to create a company, but I didn’t necessarily have the dreams of, I want it to be 35 people, global team doing all this kind of like. That wasn’t the vision back then. It was just to create something, and I didn’t know what that was going to look like yet. And as I say, here we

Max Branstetter 12:39
are. Yeah, so it’s pretty staggering. I mean, well, to drop some of the brands that you’ve worked with, there’s like PepsiCo, there’s booking.com, Sampar, money wise, is like an amazing show you’re doing right now, and a team of, you know, over 30 people around the world. I think that’s something that, like a lot of new entrepreneurs would love to have one day, but it doesn’t even quite seem realistic if you look too far ahead. You know, it’s like one start with yourself and maybe one team member at a time. But what do you think like in those early days created momentum that you said it was so organic. Like, what do you think was a good strategy you had that actually turned things positive right away early on? So

Harry Morton 13:16
I’m going to answer that. I also just want to say, reflect on what you just said. There is, like, again, I didn’t. I didn’t see this as the part like, I didn’t. I wasn’t like, in five years time, I’m going to have a massive team. It was just like, I’m going to keep working at this. And then it’s just this incremental thing, and you wake up nine years later, and it’s this, this massive organization, or massive, again, by my stat, it’s all relative, isn’t it? But so, so again, it wasn’t like, a grand vision, and it didn’t feel like, it doesn’t feel like this meteoric thing. It’s just something that’s that’s built slowly over time with by not giving up. And I really put, like, a huge amount of whatever we could label as success down to just keeping going, just keeping going, because so much of what we’ll talk about, what worked growth wise, some of that didn’t, didn’t kick in for, like, 2345, years, like there are contacts you made five years ago that come back around, and those are the things that contribute to the huge leap forward that allows you to hire that person or do that thing. So it’s really about planting seeds and having the faith that they’ll come around and sticking around long enough to see them grow. You know, like, without sounding super corny, please. So, yeah, what worked early doors. I mean, like, the very beginning, I started with cold email outreach. I would just be emailing podcasters one to one, saying, Hey, I heard your podcast. Sounds great, but here’s how I think it could be better. Would you like some help that got me the first handful of clients. I was also, like, looking on Upwork in the early days, like, really, like, base level stuff that that kind of developed, slowly develop. And I mean slowly, like it was really, really slow. In the first kind of couple of years, I was working as a waiter at the evenings and weekends to pay the bills, like it was not a sexy time, although, you know, I did do some fun waitering gigs. I got to, like, wait tables at Buckingham Palace and and kind of funky places like this, because the. A company I work for. So that was

Max Branstetter 15:01
kind of fun, but I hope you put on some more clothes. By that point, I figured that out even a

Harry Morton 15:05
waistcoat was like it was, it was very, it was very fancy. So I was, you know, it was not making a lot of money for a long period of time. So that slowly built up a book of business, and that began to sort of get a bit of referral stuff going and things like this. But it was once I’d had a couple of, you know, real B to B brand clients that I was, I was really seeing, firstly, the amount of folks entering the space and starting agencies and the competition, the amount of competition was growing. And so there was just a real like danger of racing to the bottom in terms of having to compete on price. And that wasn’t interesting to me. And but also, there was, there was the gimlet medias at the very, sort of top of the industry. And then Pacific content came along, and there was a couple of others, and Pushkin and like a bunch of others that were sort of doing that, that high tier work. But it felt like there was a big gap between, like, podcast editing services and these, like high, high, high level things. And I figured that there was an opportunity to kind of step into that enterprise role, because no one was really doing a good job of that. So once I had enough clients on the roster that felt like that was the direction of travel, I really made a conscious effort to double down on positioning myself, at the time, as premium. Subsequently, it’s like, we don’t position ourselves as premium. We’re just like, you know, we are just enterprise level. That’s kind of what we are. But like, back then, I was like, I was like, I just want to really set a stall out of, like, this is the place you come to get really high quality work. And invested a lot of money in branding ourselves and looking really great, making the website look solid. I mean, I would argue it massively needs a refresh now. But, you know, six or seven years ago, it looked, looked sweet that I would say that’s the, like, the big, pivotal moment in okay, I’m just going to focus on premium. Gonna focus on brands, not creators. We’re gonna focus on predominantly B to B. And it was through that positioning and the work that we did on SEO and all this kind of stuff that then really kind of helped us to grow and grow into that sort of position

Max Branstetter 16:59
brands is, I think it’s like a super exciting space to be in, but that’s like a totally different world when you think about it, as far as like individual creators and, you know, like even like influencers starting podcasts, things like that, I think corporate brands, there’s a lot more people involved. There’s potentially much higher budgets for marketing, but also a lot more layers of approvals, typically, that need to go through new endeavors like this. How did you start to actually win some of these? What now we would call, you know, big name brands, big name clients. When you were like, starting out like that,

Harry Morton 17:31
I think the British accent helps people trust the British accent.

Max Branstetter 17:35
They think this. This guy’s don’t reveal all your secrets. Harry,

Harry Morton 17:38
yeah, this. I mean, for all you, like Midwestern agency owners out there just put on a British accent. Go to Ohio here. Yeah, exactly. So I think it’s hard to say I think that I think I presented myself in the right way. I put together a coherent pitch. I think I established a level of credibility and trust that people would leap and like, again, like, I say, this has been a really slow and iterative thing. So it was really just like, for example, I got an inbound inquiry from a company here in the UK, an IT software solutions company, or an IT services company. We worked with them for a couple of seasons, and their marketing lead, digital marketing lead, became a great client. We got to know each other really well. We became friends. We sort of worked together on that show. And it did really great. He then moved positions into a much larger enterprise organization and brought us with him. And so he was like, well, this worked well over here. Let’s do it over there. And that was one of the, one of the notches on the sort of, you know, high quality client growth trajectory. And it’s so it’s kind of like, once you’ve got one, then the others, look at that logo on your website. They’re like, Well, okay, well, if they trust them, then they must be, they must be doing something right. And it’s sort of a slow, slow build. So it’s not like I woke up one morning and like, had a bunch of blue chip clients looking to work with us. It was just really like, proving yourself going one step further, one step further, one step further, over months and months and months of time.

Max Branstetter 18:58
And how much did you polish your British accent through that process. Do

Harry Morton 19:02
you know what? I’ve had it dialed for some years now? So what can I say? It just comes naturally at this point.

Max Branstetter 19:08
You know? Yeah, second nature for you. Wow. Yeah, exactly. So you mentioned the team of 35 around the world, and that’s one of the really, really interesting things in the podcast production space. But also just when you’re thinking about building thinking about building out a business in general. Like, if you get to the point that you’re able to to add more members to the team, how did you think about that in terms of, let’s start off with, like, how did you make it work financially? Of like, okay, we can actually bring some some others on now. And look now it’s 3035

Harry Morton 19:39
honestly, every hire that I’ve made that’s been pivotal to the growth of the company has been deeply uncomfortable to hire, as in financially, I’m like, Ooh, I better back this up. So ever, I mean, I’ve always, from the very beginning, I’ve been like, how do I get away from doing the work, even though, like, editing audio is what I’m really good at, and it’s kind of sad that I don’t get to do the thing that I am good at. And. More, and really haven’t for like, most of the time of the business at this point, I was always like, I don’t want to be doing this. I want to be focusing on, like, how do we market ourselves and sell How do I go out there and, like, sell more cool stuff? It meant that I had to find really capable people, trust them, and pay them well enough that they would stick around and then just kind of like, put them in their seat and get out of the way and go and focus on the next thing. In all of those cases, I didn’t feel like I could afford it. It was just sort of stumping up the courage to take the leap. And so that was hiring a first audio editor, back when I was hiring Show Notes writers. That was kind of hiring some freelance Show Notes writers. That was, like, a slightly easier thing to do because it was more flexible, but like, editors was like, a full time thing, and that was much, much scarier. And then you one of the big, Pivotal hires I made four or five years ago. Now, I really should know, but I can’t remember if it’s four or five was to hire Adam, our COO and, like, when I when I brought him on, I was paying him more than I was earning like, it was super scary and but, like, I just met him, and I thought this is the perfect fit for what we need right now. And it was hiring probably six months ahead of where we were, but I just had to take the bet that, like, Okay, I’m gonna hire this person. He’s gonna figure all of this operational stuff out that i is taking a ton of my time, and then I’m gonna go then work on sales and marketing, and that’s going to grow us to the point that justifies his existence as a role. And I took that bet and it paid off, and here he is, five years later, and he’s been a wonderful, wonderful addition team. So it’s like, yeah, the answer to your question is, I never knew that it was the right time to make these hires. I just had to do them or not do them. And like, it would the choices either stay where you are and kind of, like, kind of go around in circles a bit, because you can’t sell more because you can’t back it up, and you’re busy doing the work itself. So you can’t go out there and find more business. You just got to kind of take the leap and go, do, I believe there’s more business out there if all I was doing was selling? If the answer is yes, then okay, I’m going to hire that person today, and then the, you know, the fires under my feet now to go figure out where we get the next deal from.

Max Branstetter 22:03
Yeah, that’s, I think that’s one of the biggest challenges as a business owner, is just like, once you start to get clients and consistent book a business like that, it’s like, all of a sudden, when there’s so much on your plate, it’s like, hard to imagine, like, oh, like, I could be in a position where I’m not doing this day to day stuff so more and I could be in a totally different role, like that for you, how did you get yourself to finally, like, stop doing what you love and that doing the audio editing

Harry Morton 22:28
kind of necessity? Honestly, it was just like I had to sell more stuff. I didn’t have the time to be sitting there in Pro Tools, because it’s time consuming work. It’s like skilled slow work, and you got to sit there for like, hours at a time editing an episode, and every minute that you’re doing that edit, you’re not sending emails, responding to clients, sending invoices, signing contracts, pounding the pavement. It’s just so it was just a forcing function, of, like, I just, I gotta get out there and do more stuff. So, like, better trust, find someone trustworthy, and then trust them.

Max Branstetter 22:56
It’s funny. I always think about that. Of like, it’s kind of crazy. Those of us that get into the the editing and the production space, because I remember, like, early on with when I was launching this podcast, we had an early guest, uh, Tom Cassano from Sher oak, who was just like, you know, when you’re doing a podcast, one of the things that could save a bunch of time is, like, to hire somebody else to edit and to, like, offload that. And think how many hours you save when it’s off your plate? And at the time, I had not started any production or for any other clients or anything like that. So I was like, Oh yeah, that’s probably good idea. It probably saves a lot of time. And now fast forward, and my entire life is focused on editing podcasts for other like the production side for other people. And so it’s kind of like, I took his advice and then totally flipped it on his head, and you did the same thing as well. It’s like, we’re kind of like a crazy breed of people that sign up to do something or have a team that does something that is so time consuming for others. But obviously it’s, it’s proof that this is, like a necessary thing. And it’s just like, when you’re saving time for people, it’s, it’s a wonderful thing to build a business around. Yep, I think with the makeup of your team. It’s really interesting as well, because that’s probably changed a lot over the years, like when you think about podcast editing, podcast production, obviously, hiring editors, and you know a team, from that creative standpoint, comes the first natural thought there. But what would you say is, like an area of the podcasting world that in recent years you’ve got somebody, or maybe a couple of people, on your team that specialize in that has been like a game changer that wasn’t there before.

Harry Morton 24:27
Well, the obvious example for us right now is video people. We didn’t have dedicated video staff until last year, and now that’s a side of the business that I think we’re going to be growing significantly. So that, for sure, has changed. The other thing, the other stuff that’s changed is, I guess I would just say, structure of the team. So before it used to be that you would have a producer who would be working hand in hand with the client, they’d be writing, scripting, planning, researching, editing the content, and then we’d have audio folks, so sound designers and stuff that do the sort of the audio. Of thing, but the producer would be that link with the client and doing all of the creative work. And eventually we reached a point where we had enough producers, where we really started to need some structure to manage that production team. And so we’ve created, sort of, we’ve got producers, we’ve got senior producers, but then we invite, we introduced executive producers. And the executive producers kind of oversee a small team of producers manage a bunch of those projects. They also produce those themselves, but their predominant task is like making sure that the production team is doing great work and is resourced and is all that kind of stuff. That kind of operational layer, and that professionalizing layer, I guess, allows you to continue to grow that production team without having to be like ultra hands on, having a million direct reports and all this kind of stuff. And honestly, just like, hamstring them, because they’re all like, super talented people, and they need other producers who are super talented to manage them. And then what you need it, what we need, what I can’t say one needs it as, like, it’s a universal truth, but a very common role then is like a production manager. And so our production manager, Elizabeth, she oversees all of the sort of contracts and the staffing and resourcing of each of the shows to make sure everything’s running on time. Contracts are being adhered to, everyone’s time is being managed appropriately. And so she’s the kind of link between like ops and the creative side of production. So that’s been really pivotal. And then we’ve set up an entire kind of client success team, which in which involves audience development, so the growth of the podcast. So we obviously have the team that makes the shows, but then we all have the team that, like, helps get the audience in and listenership for those shows, and that comes on under kind of audience, sorry, under client success. So we’ve got the production team, we’ve got production management, we’ve got client success, and then, of course, we’ve got, you got, you know, like accounting and operations and that sort of stuff as well, and a sales team and marketing, of course. But those are the things I think that were that have absolutely developed over time. We hired all it was before was me and a bunch of producers and audio editors, and then we needed to hire some exec producers. And then the exec producers were going, Whoa, there’s so much stuff going on. We need, like, a production manager to manage that, so we put that in, and then along the way, in tandem with all that, we’re like our clients, need to be more successful. We need to make sure their shows are growing. So we need a team to handle audience development, and so it’s all kind of been added on and on and on over time.

Max Branstetter 27:14
Yeah, that’s a beautiful way to grow. And I love the it seems like the key inflection points in your business is whenever you go, whoa. I think, yes, whenever that happens, you’re like, wait a second, this is scary, but maybe we should do it. Yeah, it’s always scary, yeah. Looking back now, which again, you know, you’ve almost a decade in business now, so you’ve got a great run. You know, it’s tough for any business to stay around for multiple years, seemingly these days, but also still probably what you would consider in the early days of lower Street, what would you say is, like the biggest concept or approach overall that you think has driven the growth of your company?

Harry Morton 27:54
I think it is a relentless focus on quality and depth versus efficiency and price. It allows us to work with the best, most interesting clients, which allows us to do the best work, which is, in turn, our own marketing, but also it allows us to hire the best talent, because they get to work on interesting stuff, and they get to be fulfilled in the things they create, and I get to be proud of the work that we put out as a company. And I think that’s that’s what’s really important, that just ultimately drives us. We’re a team of creatives like no one wants to come and work for a podcast company to churn out the very best talent out there that produces the very best podcasts. Don’t want to be turning up, and just like churning out stuff, they want to be making good things. And so by us really focusing in on making good things. It means they’re motivated. That means they do great work. That means clients are happy. That means we get better and more clients. And so for me, it’s really, really easy to focus on, how do I, how do I make the bottom line better? Or how do I, how do I just maximize my profit? How do I survive this next quarter? Because it’s rough and and that can force us to make decisions that maybe don’t lend themselves to to that sort of quality piece. And that’s that’s kind of really been, been it for us, I think, and a massive dose of luck, like, just huge luck, like, truly, there’s no, I think, ask Mo, I would say the vast majority of companies that have stuck around for any period of time, I think they would attribute a lot of their quote, unquote success to to luck. And I certainly wouldn’t, wouldn’t exclude myself from that.

Max Branstetter 29:27
Yeah, we hear all the time from founders on this show of how big a piece luck plays. And if you kind of zoom out, it’s like, let’s say you were born 20 years earlier, like at the age you were at, like you, you wouldn’t have started this company, you know, like, podcasting wasn’t around yet, and so it’s like really funny to think about that. Let’s switch up. Switch it up a bit, because we’ve talked a lot of the inside baseball or inside podcasting. So let’s talk outside baseball and outside podcasting. You know, great sport, my first love. I want to talk some of like. Yeah, the trends in podcasting, but also which has kind of changed over the years, because it’s, I mean, like any medium or thing in the in the marketing world, I would say podcasting changes all the time, and it’s, there’s always so many hot takes on you need to do this, you need to do that, you need to do this. And I think with your company and some of the a lot of the shows on your roster. Like, I think you’ve been able to actually get to the point where, like, the shows are very successful, you know, they’re building audience. They’re targeted to the right audience, which that podcast market fit, as we’ll call it, is, like, really, really tough to do, and it’s becoming harder and harder. So first things here, like, what do you think is like the key thing, like number one thing that you need to get right in order to have a quote, unquote successful podcast,

Harry Morton 30:50
you need to have a reason to exist. You need to be different from what’s already out there. You need to be obsessed with the listener. So you asked about things that we’ve done differently, that have potentially contributed to our growth over time, and I sort of said I focused on the sort of premiumness of it. Well, that was also tied at the same time everyone, when I was building the business, was making interview based podcasts, and the vast majority of shows are that they’re just two people talking, and that’s great. We’re having one right now, and it’s awesome.

Max Branstetter 31:23
I was gonna say I totally hate interview No, I’m just kidding. Yeah, that’s

Harry Morton 31:27
awesome. But when I was looking around, I was like, well, like everyone’s doing these interview style shows, what we should really be pushing are the shows that I love to listen to. And for me at the time, it was like, Reply All, and startup by gimlet media, and I was, I was a gimlet Fanboy and, you know, obviously serial and This American Life and all this kind of stuff. I was, like, really into proper storytelling. I was like, well, that that, you know, not very few brands are really separating from the pack by making narrative driven shows versus just two people talking shows. So that was a big part of the focus. That was kind of what, how I would quantify premium or high quality, right? Was, was this kind of storytelling. But the answer to your this question is, like, back then, that was also the way to different differentiate. So if you’re a brand and you’re like, okay, cool, there’s like a million different interview shows out there all on the subject of, I know crypto at the time, that was hot in like 2020, how are we going to separate our show from all the other ones that are out there? Well, the answer, in some cases, can be just the format, the way it’s presented, making a higher quality thing that stands apart from everything else that’s out there, because that’s going to find listeners that actually give a damn and want to listen. So that was the answer. Then, now, then, then we’ve pivoted into like, video first shows, and one of the ways that we can really stand apart is by making a really high quality video show. And we’re probably in that transition now, but we’re also in that part where everyone thinks they want a video show. So now we’ve got to figure out, okay, how do we make the higher quality video show? And so I say laser focus on the listener and obsession with the listener. We really have to think, you know, who do we want to reach? Who are they? What are the shows they already listening to and engaging with? What do they care about? What’s their lifestyle? What purpose does this show? Should this show serve them such that it would be of high value to them and they’re going to keep coming back? The answer is probably not going to be the same as all the other shows that are out there already. The answer is probably going to be something unique and different and interesting. And I think very few people still are willing to stick their neck out and do something that feels a bit risky by not following the path well trodden. And unfortunately, the path well trodden is well trodden. You’re safe. You’re not going to like, look like an idiot if you do that, but you’re also going to be lost in a sea of noise. And so really, the answer, I think, is truly understanding and obsessing of your listener, figuring out what they’re already listening to, and make something that is not like what else is already out there, because then you have something that’s marketable, something that’s differentiated, something that’s interesting, frankly, something that’s fun to make. That’s how I’d answer that.

Max Branstetter 33:48
What about on the audience side? It just like audience growth has always been tough in the podcasting world, but I feel like it’s more and more tough every year as there’s more and more podcast and the traditional marketing, and then we’ll call them now, traditional social media platforms are changing so much in terms of reach and impressions and everything. From that standpoint, what is an example of a way that, like you guys have tried out that’s like a tried and true way of actually growing your podcast audience? Yeah, I

Harry Morton 34:19
mean, it is getting harder, for sure. There’s no question. There is more competition. The channels are more saturated. Best practice is a thing now, like, everyone, like, is aware of, like, the things they should do. And so the bar is raised, and it makes it it makes it harder. And the, you know, the rich get richer. It’s kind of like the bigger podcast get bigger because they they rise to the top, they’re featured in all the places. And so it gets, it gets it gets harder and harder to to compete there. I think really, nothing much has changed in that. The advice I’ve always given is that the instinct is to go and plaster everything over social media. That’s where people are hanging out. That’s what we should that’s what we should do to promote. And I’m not saying we shouldn’t do that. That is important and useful. Yeah, social media is a great place to find new content, but when we’re in social media mode, when we’re on Instagram or Twitter or whatever, we are looking for bite size, short form, one click the Like button, content, we’re not looking necessarily, to engage with a 40 minute podcast episode. And so making that context switch is really hard, and so I’ve always said to people, really, what we want to do is focus on the channels where people are already engaging with the content, and that’s listening to other podcasts. They’re already in that mode, and they’re ready for discovering new stuff. And so we want to think about, how do we partner with other podcasts that are serving the same audience? How do we use the platforms that people are finding their podcasts through to get in front of them, whether that’s through like, editorial coverage on things like Apple and, you know, new and noteworthy, which we’ve all obsessed over for decades. Spotify, overcast, Pocket Casts, all these different platforms. How do we use them to get our show in front of the relevant people? But really, like, you know, how do we trade promotions with other podcasters? How do we go out there and be a guest on other shows in relevant spaces? All that kind of stuff, I think, is really the bread and butter of podcast growth. And that’s not changed. Nothing’s different there. It’s getting harder and more competitive more expensive, but that’s what it is. I think there’s definitely some strategic things that you can do that are more tactical and more growth hacky. Shall we say? I think building an email newsletter around your podcast is something that bunch of people have been doing for a really long time. I don’t think that many people are doing it very well, and I think that can be a good growth lever, because it’s like, how do I if I own my audience in the audio, how do I also own them via email and then keep them engaged and keep them reminded of the content and coming back to it, so things like that as well. But honestly, I would just think about the channel itself, and how do you get in front of podcast listeners where they’re at? Yeah,

Max Branstetter 36:45
it’s so fascinating, the whole social media thing. Because you’re right. I think so many of us spend so much time on social media, sharing it out it is important. But I always thought the same way, like you have to think of it as kind of like a branding and awareness play. It’s not no one is on Instagram and hits, and it’s gonna be, oh, I’m gonna drop this or on TikTok and seeing a bunch of, you know, five second videos, and then being like, oh, okay, let’s, let’s stop doing this and pay attention to an hour long audio or video podcast. I think

Harry Morton 37:12
you gotta think about it more about we’re getting content from the podcast to feed our social content. It’s not we’re putting this thing on social to get people over to our podcast. It’s like, it’s the other way, where it’s like, flipping the other way around, you know,

Max Branstetter 37:25
yeah, yeah, that’s great way of thinking about it. All right, video, video is something that like, I mean, so this podcast I started in 2018 and I think at the time, the next year, I started, like, just a small service for my family business to help edit and produce podcasts for others. And at the time, it was like, kind of weird, if you were to talk about video and podcasting. And as I started to get more clients, it was just like the clients at the start, it was like vast majority were audio, and then, you know, one 2% whatever small amount would consider video. Now it’s like with new potential clients, vast majority want to do video as well. And I’m sure you’ve seen the same thing with yours as well. I know you guys have, you know, beefed up your video production capabilities, and obviously, from your set for those watching like It looks awesome on your standpoint as well. Thanks for being here in your underwear, Harry. But with video at the time of this recording, what’s like? The biggest thing to keep in mind, if you’re gonna go the video podcast, or has historically called vodcast route, if we dare.

Harry Morton 38:26
Firstly, it’s important to just own the fact that, like no one, no one’s really knows the answer yet, like everyone’s talking about video, but I don’t think anyone’s figured it like no one’s figured it out. We’re still working out what video means for podcasting. So that means there’s no rules, and so there is no right answer. So I have opinions, but I don’t know the answers. And I would encourage everybody to think for themselves what video podcasting means and what how they want that to affect their particular show. I think the main things from my perspective are that, yes, there is an opportunity in video, and that’s a great thing. Not every show has to have video. There is plenty of success that could be had just in audio. And so just because everyone’s talking about it doesn’t mean that you you need to be there, and you might actually find that you spend a lot of time and energy on trying to make your show work for video, but then it doesn’t really add much of a lift for all of the time and energy and energy and money you’re putting into it. It actually doesn’t necessarily help you in what you’re trying to achieve, which is reach more people and impact more people. I would say, think about again, audience centricity. Who is that audience member you’re trying to reach? Where are they hanging out? Do they want a video version of the show? If yes, great. If not, that’s also great. Like it’s fine. You can still put your audio on YouTube for the minority of folks that like to just listen to their shows on YouTube. There’s no reason not to be there, but you don’t have to put a ton of focus on like, what’s my video strategy? I think that the biggest fear I have about video podcasting is that I don’t want it to turn every show into a Talking Heads podcast, because we’ve. Like I said before we went from interview shows, we’ve managed to kind of get enough going that where there’s, like, a bunch of different interesting formats that are, like, exciting and work so well in audio, in audio, but then create huge complexities when it comes to creating a video version of that. And so what we could be tempted to do is then simplify our podcast to fit in the side of a mold of like this is easy to produce for video and audio, that is a loss to the listener, in my view, a loss to the audience. So I think it’s important to think through what impact that production capability will actually have on on your show. And I think it’s important again, you know, especially with starting a new show, is the perfect opportunity is to think, Okay, again, audience obsession, who we trying to reach? Why do they why should they care? Where are they hanging out that will inform should we make a video like, is video core to our strategy, in which case we’re making a video first podcast, which we’re then going to figure out the audio strategy for? Or are we going to make a really high quality audio program and then try to figure out what’s the video strategy for this? Because, like, it’s very hard for both to be really good. Like, you kind of need to pick your lane, in a way, it’s not at the expense of all other creative decisions, but it does mean that, like, Okay, we really want to focus on video, so therefore we’re going to make some creative decisions that might sort of inhibit our ability to do some of the things we might have done in audio. But that’s fine, because that’s where we want to focus, and vice versa. And so I think what I don’t want people to do is get caught up in the in the thing, and go, I’ve got to show a podcast, and so I’m just going to slap two talking heads on it, put it on YouTube, and away we go. We’ve done video that’s not really going to provide much of a lift. It’s not a great video experience, and it might make our audio show become worse because we’re focusing on that video stuff. So there’s my sort of loose video rant. I do think that there’s a ton of opportunity here. There’s like, a ton of like, stuff that unlocks. We’ve been working on stuff with money wise, and our producer, Jackie’s been doing a few episodes where she’s gone out into the field and recorded stuff in situ, like she did an episode on private jets for for this show, money wise, that we work on. And so she went to an airport and that that made it really interesting, both to listen to and to watch, because it was like, Okay, I have a sense of place like this. There’s a this is adds to the experience, because I can see where she’s at, and also, when you hear it on the audio only, you hear where she’s at, and that’s cool, you know, like, that’s a good thing. It gives it a time and a place, versus, just like me on yet another Riverside or squad cast, as we happen to be here today, Max. So I think there’s absolutely a ton of, like, really creative and interesting things that it brings or kind of pushes us towards, which is, which is wonderful. But I would just encourage everyone not to get swept up in Video, Video, Video, at the expense of all else, because it might actually just make the show worse.

Max Branstetter 42:41
Yeah, I appreciate the perspective there. And I think what’s so addicting and exciting for a sighting just made up a word for so many of us that are adopting video as well is just plain and simple, like the Discover ability potential on YouTube is just so much more visible there than like it is on the audio platforms. And, you know, the recommended, there’s so many ways that people can find you, you know, on the internet and on YouTube, which has become more difficult with traditional podcasting. So I think that’s really, really key. This is

Harry Morton 43:10
true. There is a bunch of opportunity for discoverability, but what we found, at least with money wise again, so this is the podcast that I host and we work on. It’s very, very difficult to get access to that discoverability piece unless you’re making content that’s really focused on YouTube, because YouTube wants YouTube content. And so, for example, the things that really impact how your show performs on YouTube is, how many people do you maintain for the first five minutes or 30 seconds? Like, what’s that retention rate? Do people click on this, watch it, and then stick around and then do they click on another video and stick on the platform? Because if they do those things, then YouTube rewards your video because it’s like, great. I want shows that increase YouTube cares about how long can I keep users on this website? And so if your content does that, awesome. So that means you’ve got to kind of really think about that when you’re making the show. That means you’ve got to be really cognizant of that fact. So if you’re just doing an interview show, and you slap up your talking heads, you’re Yes, in theory, you are giving yourself access to this discoverability piece. But the thing is, your content isn’t built for that algorithm, and so it’s not going to get rewarded by it great. It’s exciting. But you, in order to really benefit from the thing that you’re excited about, you’ve actually got to lean in super hard, and then it makes you focus. And again, I’m finding this with money wise, we focus so heavily on the YouTube to try and get that thing going that we’re really making a YouTube show where we rip the audio and put it on a podcast. And that’s a very different beast. So it’s, it’s an interesting trade off you’re making.

Max Branstetter 44:34
Well, speaking of interesting trade offs, let’s trade off the final few minutes of your time here with a daunting rapid fire. Q, and a you ready for it? I’m ready. All right, let’s get wild. What’s the first podcast that you ever listened

Harry Morton 44:45
to? The Ricky Gervais podcast? Oh,

Max Branstetter 44:50
I know you co own a cow. What’s the name of your cow? There’s a bunch cows. Sorry, plural

Harry Morton 44:55
cows. Plural, there’s seven. I won’t like blackjack. The one we most recently ate, sorry. Listeners, viewers.

Max Branstetter 45:01
How about the other six? No, just guy. What is that? All right, what’s the, what’s like? The one line answer for the difference between brands that see like a business impact with their podcast and those who

Harry Morton 45:14
don’t like I said, the ones that lean in and are brave enough to do something that’s outside of everything else that they’re seeing their competitors

Max Branstetter 45:24
do. And then last one, there’s a lot of what’s it called, profitizing, predicting, pontificating, what the future of podcasting might look like. Most people are focused on what the next 510, years will look like. So I’m just going to throw you a total curveball. What will podcast look like in the year 2125

Harry Morton 45:41
in the year 2125 I mean, God, like i It’ll all be hooked to our brains via neuralink. Surely, we won’t be listening to anything. It’ll just be like telepathically, kind of transmitted. Yeah, I have no idea. I think, for better or worse, I do think the YouTube the video thing is going to have a tremendous impact on the podcast space, and it’s up to us as the podcast industry to decide to what extent that changes. You know, do we want to really fight for the what’s awesome about audio? And I absolutely love and adore and would stand up for audio forever. I’m ex I love video, and I’m excited by it, but I don’t want it to be like I said before. I don’t want those trade offs we have to make to be at the expense of great audio storytelling and just listening to wonderful stories. So yeah, I’m excited by what YouTube’s bringing to the table, but I hope we can all rally around audio storytelling and make sure that is alive and well in another 1020, 30, 100 years time.

Max Branstetter 46:35
Well, I’m excited for the subconscious podcast, but Harry, thank you so much. You’re a huge inspiration in the space. And I really appreciate your time and and also, just like following you online, like you are so over the top, generous and helpful with like what you’ve learned as a company and through now you’re hosting Moneywise, and there’s so many great case studies and webinars you guys do. So really, really, really appreciate you coming on. If anybody wants to learn more, they can check out LowerStreet.co or check out Harry Morton on LinkedIn, as well as @PodcastHarry on X or Twitter. Is there any anything else you want to shout

Harry Morton 47:09
out? Harry? Nope, you got it. That’s awesome. Thanks. Max. This awesome. I really appreciate it.

Max Branstetter 47:13
Yeah. Back at you. Last thing, Final Thoughts, literally could be a few words if you want send us home. What is just kind of words of wisdom, final things to live by was,

Harry Morton 47:24
buy a cow.

Max Branstetter 47:26
I don’t know it’s gonna be cow related. No,

Harry Morton 47:29
I the only thing I’d say business what, like, I think I mentioned it earlier, is any success, quote, unquote, that we’ve experienced is by virtue of not giving up and sticking around. And I would just tell everybody that just stick at it, because the folks that stick at it are the ones that still be standing when everybody else gives up. That’s, yeah, the best advice I could give, but I don’t know any more than anybody else, so take that advice with a massive pinch of salt.

Max Branstetter 47:55
Oh, Harry, it’s a massive pinch of smiles. What a guy. Thank you so much, Harry, for all you do for the podcasting space and beyond, for perfecting that fake British accent. We all know that you sound like you’re from the southern US in real life. Thank you, Wild Listeners for tuning in to another episode. If you want to hear more Wild stories like this one, make sure to Follow or Subscribe to Wild Business Growth on your favorite podcast platform, as well as on YouTube. YouTube is where the video versions are at, not that we talked about video at all in this episode, and you could Subscribe there @MaxBranstetter on YouTube, you can learn all things podcasting, podcast production, Wild Business Growth, as well as the Podcasting to the Max newsletter, which drops every Thursday at MaxPodcasting.com and until next time cheers and Let your business Run Wild…Bring on the Bongos!!