Full Transcript – Chris Guerrera and Carmine Denisco – Wild Business Growth Podcast #241

This is the full transcript for Episode #241 of the Wild Business Growth Podcast featuring Chris Guerrera and Carmine Denisco – United Inventors Association. You can listen to the interview and learn more here. Please note: this transcript is not 100% accurate.

Carmine Denisco 0:00
Here’s the thing, if you’re successful your product I’m going to blow your mind. Someone’s going to copy you

Max Branstetter 0:19
How are you doing? Welcome back to the Wild Business Growth Podcast. This is your place to hear from a new entrepreneur every single Wednesday morning, who’s turning Wild ideas into Wild growth. I’m your host, Max Branstetter, Founder and Podcast Producer at MaxPodcasting. And you can email me at to save time with your high-quality podcast. This is episode 2000 140 241. And today’s guests, guests plural are Chris Guerrera and Carmine Denisco. They are some of the brightest minds in the worlds of invention and manufacturing, and product development. Carmine is the President of the United Inventors Association and he’s the Founder of Earmark Sourcing, and he is an absolute wizard when it comes to inventing and creating products and getting them developed all around the world. Chris is known as the “King of Manufacturing” and he is a Lean Six Sigma Master Black Belt, an amazing career as a mechanical engineer, and is also the VP of the United Inventors Association. In this episode, we talk all things how to invent a product, how to manufacture a product, whether or not you should get a patent and when to do that. Along with some of the best analogies you’ll ever hear. And lots of talk about sexy cars and aspirations to coach professionally in the sports world. It is Chris and it is Carmine and you will certainly need to buckle your seatbelts and get your popcorn ready. That is a must. Enjoyyyyy the shooooow!

Aaaaalrightyyyyyy we are here with the dynamic duo of dynamic duos in the world of dynamic inventions. We are here with Chris Guerrera and Carmine Denisco not Nabisco, who are some of the leaders of the United Inventors Association, just some of the brightest minds in the world of inventing and manufacturing that you’ll come across. Chris and Carmine how’re you doing today? Thanks so much for doing it.

Carmine Denisco 2:26
Doing great, man. Thank you. Yeah, doing good. Looking

Chris Guerrera 2:29
forward to this, this interview

Max Branstetter 2:31
Thank you. Well, that was the best part, just like the intro line right there. So you know, I’m just here to disappoint you for the rest of it. But now really, really appreciate you making time today and fascinated dive into, you know, both of your backgrounds and what you do individually as well as together kind of a Batman and Robin type thing you can you can choose who’s who? Or maybe you do both. But before that, I want to start off with invention. So we’ll start off with you, Carmine, is there anything growing up that you can flash back to that you remember if like, oh, wow, that this inventing thing is really, really cool. I might want to do this someday.

Carmine Denisco 3:09
Yeah, you know, there is a lot of times as I was growing up, or while I was growing up, I used to see my parents struggling with things around the house, in the kitchen, and things in that sense. And I was the youngest of three, not that that’s a lot of children in a house. But I was always struggling for attention. I don’t know why but I was. So I always used to try to figure out ways to help them out. So they would say, Oh, thank you so much, or this is great. So it really started me on the way of inventing and helping others.

Max Branstetter 3:37
I mean, I can barely count to three. So off to a hot start. But how about you, Chris? Chris/Christopher, I’m tripped up on the name, which is so easy. Do you have any? Is there anything that made you you know, jump out of your socks about eventing growing up? I’ll tell

Chris Guerrera 3:51
you it’s interesting, because I’m also the youngest of three, you know you how it is when you’re young, as you always you always scrapping, whether you play in sports, or you’re looking for homework or attention. It’s just how it is. I wouldn’t I wouldn’t change it for anything, because I think it made me who I am today from a personality trait. And I always found myself fascinated with with how things worked. You know, I’m an engineer. So obviously, I want to say back in when I was 13, I went to a technical high school. And there’s a lot of curriculums you can choose from about 28. I picked design and engineering. And of course, my dad was electrical guy and my brother was a paint body guy. They’re like, why did you pick that? It just naturally attracted me. So I found myself at early age, age 13 Making a decision that lasted forever. A career decision. Think about that for a second at age 13. I have the largest from an entrepreneurial standpoint, the largest paper in Waterbury, Connecticut. So all my friends are always competitive. And you know, we got 150 customers I think it was like, your schoolwork or on track playing baseball basketball, then got to do a paper route. I always found myself intrigued. So I would say early age young age even before 30 Team messing with blocks and stuff outside and trying to build things with my hands. I always felt that that needs I think it does start at early age

Max Branstetter 5:08
paper is something, something my dad has always talked about as like one of the best early signs of entrepreneurship and like innovation, like there’s so many amazing entrepreneurs, super successful people out there that started with a paper route, because I think there’s so many lessons you can learn from it. What was the lesson, Chris, that sticks with you best to this day from, from doing that paper wrote a business at the time?

Chris Guerrera 5:33
Yeah, it’s responsibility. It’s a commitment, right? So during the week, you’re delivering papers early in the morning. So it’s a commitment of getting up before you go to school. Most kids can’t get up. After school starts, I had to get up two hours before school started, right. And then the best one was on a Sunday, because now you’ve got Sunday paper, which is 10 times thicker. So those 150 papers now are heavy, extremely heavy. You know, I even begged to get a ride every now and then for my dad, please let me put them in the trunk. But most of the time it didn’t you know, back in the day, it wasn’t like that. So most of the time, you had to lug it on your shoulder and walk it around. And so the faster you did it, the lighter the bag got. So I always found responsibility and commitment to make sure that what you say you’re going to do. You’re delivered on

Max Branstetter 6:19
that Sunday, right? Were you able to finish before the Sunday NFL games? Oh, yeah, I

Chris Guerrera 6:24
was so young back then. I mean, yeah, I don’t think I’m like today I live. I plan my life around NFL today. Back then I’m not so sure.

Max Branstetter 6:34
So how did you two meet each other? Because because I know that you two are really tight in partner in a number of things now. But as of you know, just a few years ago, at the time of this recording, you hadn’t even met yet. So what So how did this bromance blossom.

Carmine Denisco 6:47
You know, several years ago, I was doing some I was on the board for the UIA and I was doing some podcasts and some recordings at the Hardware Show out in Vegas. You know, for some reason, Chris is one of those guys that when he walks in the room or walks by you just want to say hey, what’s up or talk to him? And he was walking by he had a buddy with them that had an invention and I was doing a podcast. And I grabbed him. I said, Hey, why don’t you guys sit down, we’ll do a we’ll do a show. And I didn’t know who he was at the time we got an intro, we started talking. And that was kind of the first I think, Chris, meeting that we had in unless there was some other time.

Chris Guerrera 7:23
No, that was and I think you can tell when the chemistry is right with people, right? It’s easy to see when someone’s wanting to do the right thing and doing the right thing. And I think we when we joined Carmine was on the United Inventors Association Board. Then they had asked me to join I joined and you know, we quickly made some changes. And then we became the president and the vice president. But I think our synergies are right. He’s got manufacturing and connections all over the world, I do a lot of my manufacturing, mostly all my manufacturing in the US. So it’s like a perfect match. Not everything is made for the US. And things that aren’t made to the US combine can do. And vice versa. And I think we have, you know, diversified enough background that the chemistry is has been great. And and now we’re helping a lot of people

Max Branstetter 8:08
in Carmine What was your first impression of this guy, Chris, who walks in the room and won’t stop talking?

Carmine Denisco 8:15
Well, that was my impression. No, you know, when I when I first met Chris, you know, he super organized, very professional, nice guy. You know, people believe that Chris is assertive, or sometimes he is, I don’t want to say pushy, but he gets what he needs and gets it done. And the reason he does that is because when he says he’s going to do something he does it. And that’s kind of the first impression I got. And I love that about people when they say they’re going to do something, they get it done. And in this industry and almost any industry. You know, that’s something that we have to live by all we have is our word. And that’s one thing that really impressed me. Everything that Chris has said he’s going to do he’s come to fruition, which is just awesome in this day and age.

Chris Guerrera 8:55
No, I would say you know, that falls back on max on the efficiencies right? Come on the automotive industry, and there’s no room for error. Like at Ford, BMW, especially BMW, you shut a line down. It’s $1,100 a minute, you have 2,000 people standing around on one assembly line. You’re not You’re not in a job for too long if you’re doing that. So for me, it’s always been efficiencies and it’s about and I hear a lot of people do a lot of talking, and I do no delivering. And that’s an annoyance for me. I mean, and Carmine knows that so I’m a no nonsense guy and I like to deliver on what I promise.

Max Branstetter 9:33
So let’s deliver on some nonsense here. Let’s uh, let’s get to manufacturing for inventions. So as you alluded to, you both have kind of this yin yang of, you know, Chris with a background in USA manufacturing Carmine with connections in manufacturing prowess all around the world. So works really well together. And obviously entrepreneurs can go you know, one of two routes or both of those routes with their businesses over over their lifetime career So starting with you, we’ve joked before the interview that, that I heard somebody call you to peanut butter and jelly. And you said, you said, that’s great. But I prefer the nickname king of manufacturing, which I guess probably has a little bit more weight to it. So where did this interest in manufacturing in the first place, start with you.

Chris Guerrera 10:19
So I started out as an engineer, as I told you that and then I went into product development and from product development led me to tool design, not just product design application. So the whole gamut. And then truly, when I went to BMW, I went in as a technical manager then quickly got promoted to plant managers and Vice President and Executive Vice President. And with that comes a lot of responsibility. So everything under that plant falls under me. And part of that was Lean Six Sigma. So throughout my career, I became a master black belt and Lean Six Sigma, people say what the hell is that it’s the highest level you can have, it takes a lot of work to get to that level, just to sum it up and make it simple. It’s efficiencies, it’s all about producing what you need, when you need it, about changing tools out quick, making sure you don’t have a lot of capital tied up, and cash tied up in capital, and it’s streamlining your process. So you do it the first time the right way. It gets done quickly. And it’s effective, you have good quality, it doesn’t come back. And I become an expert in that area. I mean, everything I do now, I see through a different lens.

Max Branstetter 11:24
So you read my mind there, because I was I’ve heard so much about six sigma, and even black belt term thrown around a few times. But I still don’t really know what it is. But it helps when you characterize in terms of efficiency. And I know it’s gotta be super helpful on the engineering side, for somebody to become a black belt in this space, how much studying slash courses slash whatever is involved is there to achieve that rank. And there’s different

Chris Guerrera 11:49
levels, right, you start out early on as a yellow green, and then it progresses red, black levels of black and then there’s master black belt, you have to do a lot of actually a lot of facilitations of Gimbels, and Kai’s ends in work areas, you have to with BMW, I had to do 20 Different facilitations around the world. So I was actually doing Kies ends and events in France, in Paris. And in Germany, I was sitting in some of these classes where they spoke a different language. So you know, so that was part of the criteria. But then when you came back, you had, I don’t know, 46 plants at the time. And you were compared amongst all the plants of your efficiencies. So what type of uptime you had on your machines, what type of throughput, how fast you can change tools over how long your inventory was, how fast you turned your inventory, how good you cashflow was good your quality was all these were key matrix and measurements that you’re being evaluated on me personally, in my plant. And I’m compared across the world on those platforms. And once a year, you have a shoot forum, in Germany or in France, where all the executives meet, could be up to 500 people and then you’re ranked in front of everybody. And I can tell you, when I took the BMW plant, when I first started to run it, it was a mess. That group was losing about a million dollars a month and I had made a commitment I can turn around in a year, it took every act of God when I when I say this is like you come into work at five in the morning, you go through all your iterations, I didn’t leave until 10, my phone would ring at two in the morning if the line went down. So it was a constant. I mean, that’s what Lean is, right? It’s constant improvement all the time, even when you become world class, you got even more ways to improve, you have to continue to improve. And and I think you know, part of that drives me also, I’m also competitive, I don’t like to lose, I like to be number one. If you’re not used to that environment, it’ll rip you apart. That’s why I say Automotive is a good training ground for me, because across the board, Ford Motor Company, all the big companies do that. And you’re held accountable, you’re responsible and held accountable. So I just found the best way to do it is to learn the systems really well. Get the right people, train them, put them in the system, and then hold everybody accountable. And I’m telling you I’ve done some wonderful things with it.

Max Branstetter 14:05
And speaking of foreign language, can you define Gemba and Kaizen because I’m already learning all sorts of new terms.

Chris Guerrera 14:12
Kaizen is an event if you do like a SMED, a single minute exchange of dies you’re actually going to look at

Max Branstetter 14:17
that when we got an instant definition on.

Chris Guerrera 14:19
Yeah, so you got you’re evaluating your tool changes over time, right. So the goal is to make to not build inventory. So in order to do that, when you’re doing injection molding, you have to have the machine which is a big data item, a big capital item. You don’t want it sitting idle, you want it running all the time. So how do you do that you do the quickest tool changes possible. You don’t build big banks of inventory and tie cash up, especially maybe you run into risk of perhaps having a quality issue and that bank of material. So you do quick changes. You get mo changes in and out you build low inventory and high throughput. Gembas are like the center where you’re going to do it like if I want to do single minute exchange sites. Man, I’m going to do it in an injection molding area. And then we’ll have a large Kaizen event to attack just that. So how do you do it, you have Quick Connect plates, you have stably connectors that are color coded, the molds are being heated on the outside of the injection press. So when you, when you go to pull anything, it’s all process, you have a nice little workstation on wheels, that’s like a surgeon’s table all your tools, you’re not looking for tools, you’re not looking for anything. It’s like NASCAR, you stop the press last good piece, change the mold. First good piece that your time.

Max Branstetter 15:32
So Carmine, let’s get to your Gembas and Kaizens because this to my new favorite terms, Chris has the footprint, literally in the US, and you kind of skew more on the global side of things. So what got you thinking more globally in terms of, you know, your connections and ties in the manufacturing world?

Carmine Denisco 15:52
So yeah, it’s, it’s one of the one of the things that I’ve been working on for close to 20 years, you know, I started off as most inventors, I am an inventors. And we’re all crazy, I can say that, because I am an inventor, you know, starting off wanting to make here in North America in the US. And there are some products, as Chris mentioned, that, that really, you know, you can make here and make a good living at. But you know, what I found very quickly was, I needed to be flexible, I need to be nimble, I needed to make those products at a good quality at a good price. And sometimes it just was not feasible, had to go to Guatemala, Honduras, the Philippines, Korea, China, India, things like that, and really try to get that product at a good price. So what I did was I just started building up those relationships, I went through a lot of people, I call up some of the colleges in the area, and in the US found out who had the great MBA systems, the world classes, the you know, the classes on international business, and I found some of the people who were taking classes here in the US, and then they were moving back to their countries I made, made them and started hiring and as a consultant and just build up that relationship so that when I did need a project done or product developed, I could reach out to them. And they were a trusted partner. And I still have many of those people that I work with today. So that’s what kind of really drove me is because as Chris does here in the US, it’s not just about having a product. And it’s not just about selling a product, it’s a constant ability to lower that cost to raise that quality to deliver that product faster. So having those relationships and being on the same level. It just helps you do that. So that’s constant, you know, we develop a product. The next question is a year later is okay, how do we get the price down. And we can do that with our contacts overseas. Right now we’re running, Chris and I were running 50 products in seven different countries. And the reason we’re doing that most of those are either redevelopment, new versions, updated products, or lowering costs overall. So it’s not just about developing new products, it’s about reinventing your product for a better price.

Max Branstetter 18:00
So you mentioned seven different countries, just over the past decade or two, are there certain countries or certain parts of the world where you who you tend to partner with more frequently,

Carmine Denisco 18:10
there are, you know, we all want to shy away from the Asian countries, and we all want but you know, it’s one of those things where the people in these countries are awesome, you know, we might not agree with the government, how they work, how they do things, there are some countries you’re going to stay away from, and I found that out, but a lot of the country so it depends on the product. So you know, and I don’t want to take up too much time. But you know, having the ability to reach out to different countries with different technical abilities, that is what’s most important, so you don’t want to make a plastic product in Honduras right now, you don’t want to make a plastic product. In Guatemala, you might want to do clothing or products or sheets, or you know, they’re known for those fabrics, but they are starting to learn they are starting to develop those plastic injections as Chris made. So dependent on your product. Depending on the type of material you’re going to make, you have to be able to reach out to those experts and do that so a lot of products or plastic ladder products are injection molded, so you’re going to go to those Asian countries whether it’s Korea or China or the Philippines and things like that, of course electronics you really can’t beat those guys now we can pay more somewhere else. But we’re gonna get beat on price so you really have to sometimes put your ego aside and deliver a good price for a good product.

Max Branstetter 19:24
I don’t know my ego personally can’t be put aside

Chris Guerrera 19:28
don’t get me going on.

Max Branstetter 19:31
Now that we’re really gonna run out of time so I would love to do almost like a thought experiment here and for in for you know, this next series of questions. Six Sigma question I just got this next series of questions either

Chris Guerrera 19:49
at the end of this this podcast

Max Branstetter 19:51
I’ve got no I don’t know how to spell Gemba, Kaizen. I thought you were cursing at me. I can’t even spell my last name, but like, if I am an inventor of a physical product, and I’m really, really excited about it, I kind of have like the initial prototype done. But I’m looking to get some backing, I’m looking to start scaling and actually start, you know, producing this product for real. Where what are some good pointers for somebody in that situation to get rolling and start, like thinking bigger with their product,

Chris Guerrera 20:30
obviously, I look at it a little bit different right being in the US, you have to be extremely competitive. So what are some of the ways I’m competitive to manufacture products in the US on an injection molded part? Well, for example, the tooling is built in the same plant, that tooling is in putting the same equipment in the same plant, the molding is done in that same plant, the operator who’s actually running the machine, the labor is already accounted for. So when that press closes, that’s free time free labor time. So you have labor, you don’t want them walking around, you don’t want them watching movies, you really want to make them efficient. So if there’s value add to the product, like in the case of the product, I took on Shark Tank, Super Potty Trainer, there’s a there’s silicone pads they put on, there’s a label they put on, it goes right into a box onto a skid, and it has two locations in the same plant either goes into inventory, or it literally goes to the dock to be shipped. So there’s no trucking it, there’s no shipping containers, there’s no fulfillment centers, there’s no touching it two and three, and four and five times there’s no Miss handling, handling it, all of that cost is eliminated completely. So now the speed to shipping is incredibly fast. And the cost is incredibly low. So that’s, that’s where I can be extremely competitive. So when I look at a new product, I look at all of that first, then I say, Okay, can I do that, in my facilities, if I can, then we start quoting it. If I can’t, then Carmine gets involved. And we start looking at options, and costs associated with those options to either produce in the US or not, and give them an option to produce abroad.

Carmine Denisco 22:12
You know, a lot of us inventors, we believe if we have an idea, and some of us are taught, there’s some books out there, there’s some companies out there that we as inventors or lead people down the road that if they have an idea, also they need and they’re going to make a lot of money, that it’s just somewhat easy to sell your idea or license your idea? Well, it’s not people don’t buy ideas, they don’t pay for ideas. So there’s a specific sequence that you should follow. I’m not saying that you need to do everything and go and manufacture 10,000 units of your product. But you need to not only prove that your product is feasible that it can be made. And it can be marketed that people want it. So you need to go through at least that sequence in order to be somewhat successful. So finding somebody, as you mentioned an investor or signing somebody to buy it, they’re not going to pay for a patent. If you just have a patent, most likely, you’re not going to get somebody to invest in your product, because you haven’t proven that it’s wanted or feasible or marketable or that you can be made. So you have to answer that question, why now? Why is this product needed in the market. So if I get involved, or Chris gets involved, we’re going to step you through those processes. And it’s not free, but you need to do it in a smart, lean manner. You know, we get here at the UAE, tons of calls tons of heartbreaking stories that people have spent their money with the company or they’ve, you know, spent it in the wrong direction or at a sequence. You know, we get people that have spent $50,000 on patents. Now we’re not against patents, but there’s a sequence there’s a time to do it. So when we get involved, we really have to step back, we have to look at the product, see where the people are, what they want to achieve. And then we go from there. And that’s what Chris and I worked very well at no matter what that next step is. We had the answer.

Chris Guerrera 23:51
Some of the people were teaching the wrong thing to these inventors and they’re taking their money. But they’re teaching him or I had somebody come to me not too long ago with a yellow sticky literally with some hand drawn sketch. And they reached out to me, so how can I help you? They said, Well, I want to know how fast you can get that into Walmart. So I literally thought I was being Punk’d. So what do you mean? You mean that yellow sticky the sketch? So you realize Walmart buys finished products and finished retail packaging, right? There’s barcodes, it’s in packaging. There’s a distribution center, there’s trucking companies involved, there’s purchase orders with buyers, they don’t buy ideas, and they were like shocked so that again with these people being taught incorrectly and some of these companies are having people coach people who have never done the process who have no success stories. So how can you teach them that’s like me saying I’m gonna just show up at the Yankees next week and become their manager. I coach high school I coach Little League, you know I coach a you so I can coach pro right?

Max Branstetter 24:56
Well, there’s there’s some fans out there that probably would welcome you as man Sure, well, I can tell you the Vikings I’m sure

Carmine Denisco 25:02
you know what’s funny. If there’s anyone that’s going to be pulled out of the out of the stands to coach, it would be Chris here just show up to a spring season training and for somehow they would grab them and hat and say, Hey, we need a coach, you know, and I just

Chris Guerrera 25:14
want one chance of being a defensive coordinator for one game for the Minnesota Vikings. I promise you, I will fix that.

Max Branstetter 25:22
I will not mention right now that my wife is a big Giants fan. First and foremost, I have to apologize, Chris for coming to you with that post it note, I should have developed the product. But no, this is really great insight. And Carmine you You brought up a patent, which I think is something that so many inventors struggle with. There’s like a group of people that want to get a patent as soon as possible. And there’s others that are like, Oh, actually, it kind of reveals all your secrets when you do that. So like what would you say is the right time to actually get your product a patent for what you’re making?

Carmine Denisco 26:00
Yeah, great question. So there’s several steps in the sequence. So the first thing you would do is, if you needed to get a patent if you are obligated to be a patent. So if you’re going to go on HSN, and QVC, or you’re going to get that product and put it out into the public, you don’t need to get a full patent, you get a provisional patent, it’s called a PPA you get a year on your product, there’s a lot of products out there, there’s so moving so fast, that there’s so many changes in it. And so many versions that even if you’re patenting, there’s no reason to because this changes, you’re always going to be ahead of those knockoffs. Here’s the thing, if you’re successful your product, I’m going to blow your mind, someone’s going to copy you. Okay, they’re I’m telling you right now, so you’re not going to because you’re thinking about the US, you still got the rest of the world. So even if you had a patent here in the US and I and you’re making a million dollars on your product, I’m just gonna go sell it in Europe. So don’t put all your trust in a patent system, we work with the USPTO, we are friends with them, we work very, very closely with them. So the answer being is to get a patent is when it’s stopping you from making money, not out of fear. But out of true business knowledge. If you need that patent to make money to sell your product, that’s when you apply for your patent, it has to be a reason for it. And you don’t ask your patent attorney for business advice. They are a patent attorney, if I go to the dentist and tell him my foot hurts, he’s going to work on my teeth. So if you need information on your invention, if you need direction, as somebody who knows. And here’s the trick. Ask them how many products they have invented that have been successful. So if you’re going to take advice, take it from somebody that actually does it, most likely, they’re going to say none.

Max Branstetter 27:40
I’m loving all these analogies here. And a dentist combo with the foot doctor, I think would be pretty impressive. That’s a lot of schooling there.

Chris Guerrera 27:48
Max, you know what happens if you if you spend your money foolishly or in the wrong places out of sequence, then when you need the money for the right sequence, you don’t have it any more than the famous, the famous line I always get was would be, oh, hey, I’ll give you a percent of my company, if you can help me. So I say okay, let me make sure I understand. So you want me to put all my cash into it, invest into your product, spend the next one to two years developing it? And you’re gonna give me a percent of your company that’s worth zero right now. So I’m not sure I understand. So you want me to spend all my money on your product investing in your product with the chances and hope that it’ll be more than 0%? That’s somehow it just doesn’t make a whole lot of mathematical sense.

Max Branstetter 28:32
It doesn’t it my head is spinning. Now I need a calculator I need you know, there’s a lot of zeros there.

Chris Guerrera 28:38
I’m sure it falls back to like a Lean Six

Carmine Denisco 28:40
Sigma, a Lean Six Sigma Black Belt, Max, that’s what you need.

Max Branstetter 28:44
I know exactly. For you. Right. Next thing? Perfect. I’ll do it. I’ll do it on a sticky note. I’ll draw one that will that’ll be the start. What are some of the some other of the most common challenges that you see that each of you see new inventors and entrepreneurs run into on the manufacturing side?

Carmine Denisco 29:06
It’s just a lot of times back, what we see is they’re getting information. As we mentioned earlier, they’re getting information from the wrong sources. They’re moving forward too quickly, at the wrong time spending money out of sequence on the wrong things. And that’s one thing that we do very well Chris and I is we put resources you gotta remember, money is a resource, but there’s other resources. It’s spending time away from your family. It’s calling that family friend for an investment money. It’s telling the neighbors about your product, if you use all of your resources in the wrong place, when you’re ready and need those resources, they’re not available. So one of the problems that we see a lot of is that inventors you know, they are using the wrong resources. They’re listening to the wrong person. You don’t want to ask your neighbor Hey, I got this idea. What should I do next? The neighbor is gonna say get a patent and you’re gonna say okay, so so that is the biggest thing that we see. And they have they have absolutely If you ask an inventor, hey, who’s this product for? They say, everyone. Well, if you say everyone, that means no one. So if you tell an investor this products for everyone, he knows you didn’t do your research. Even an iPhone isn’t for everyone. So it’s those things that you have to be true to it yourself. You have to know your market. And you got to know what the limitations of what you can do, and bring in the right people to take over those gaps and fill in those sequences when it’s needed. So the first

Chris Guerrera 30:26
one is a study that says, oh, yeah, my family thinks it’s great. All my friends, I’ve shown it to all the people at the baseball field, they love it, they think it’s great. I go, okay, good. Super. Have them write, you will check. If they think it’s that good, then have them invest in it right now. Because when someone gives me a stock tip, and it’s really good, I invest in it. Oh, they don’t have any money. They don’t want to. It’s not that good. So I always say get away from your friends and family. Like that’s to bias get some real surveys from people you don’t know that a like Carmine says, like me who’s going to really tell you the truth. And be forthright about it and tell you how I see it. I mean, you know, I can tell you many people want to spend hundreds of 1000s of dollars on inventory coming from China, or doing something just because they told them this is the best line. They told me I should buy, I should make 10,000 units because the more units I make the cheaper the piece prices. I’m like, Okay, so what’s your plan to sell it? I don’t have a plan. So you just spend your life savings, and you have inventory now that you can’t sell? No wonder why your wife wants to kill you.

Max Branstetter 31:29
You somehow stumbled back to like this question I wrote down was probably 15 minutes ago, which was how do you how do you advise inventors to think about their initial batch size?

Chris Guerrera 31:40
So again, I’m an inventory control guy. I don’t like inventory. Right? So inventory is evil, especially in early product development.

Max Branstetter 31:47
So batch size of one or zero? Yeah, what what think about it,

Chris Guerrera 31:51
right, let’s just take a paycheck, let’s say somebody’s working for a living, and they get paid every week. So I tell them to take their paycheck and just put it on the shelf. Next week’s put on the shelf, no, you can’t touch it, just look at it, walk by it every day. Do it for like six weeks, just keep doing it. That’s what inventory is, if you’re not able to sell it, it’s money. It’s cash that you’ve tied up, that you will hope someday you can sell. But if you don’t, then you’re done. It’s a little different than having a poor quality product, where you know, you have to either rework it, which cost you more, or you have to scrap it, which is completely wasting cash. But that’s how I look at inventory. So I always look at it, where it’s really important that you take the right steps, there’s no need to rush once you finally believe you have something right. You have the you know, you have the design and packaging and you’re ready to go full blown, then you hit the market running but there’s there’s a sequence and how you should do it.

Max Branstetter 32:42
And there’s a sequence for signing up for the Podcasting to the Max newsletter. Thank you so much, Chris, your check is in the mail, you can sign up by going to MaxPodcasting.com/Newsletter, enter in your email, and then you will get an email from me every Thursday that includes podcasting tips, and includes entrepreneurship tips, and includes some awful puns that you could just like ignore that part if you don’t like awful puns, but if you do, this is the newsletter for you, as well as you know, the sprinkles of entrepreneurship and podcasting as well sign up at MaxPodcasting.com/Newsletter. Now let’s dive into the best way to invent products. And just a note for the rest of the interview. Carmine had to hop off, probably to go fight with somebody about a patent. So he is in this next segment. But for the remaining two segments after that, it will just be Chris and I. So if you’re wondering where in the world is Carmine Sandiego? Just kidding, Carmine Denisco That is where. So let’s switch gears and tooling and injection molding and machinery a little bit. And let’s get to a segment of inspiration and creativity. So this is can involve some of the stuff, it’s actually going to be a mix of, you know, your work and then kind of non work life. So from each of you really curious. You’ve both you know, invented things you’ve been surrounded by endless amounts of inventors and you both lead you know, an amazing organization and group of inventors. What are some of the best ways to come up with new product ideas.

Carmine Denisco 34:28
The main thing is is to stay in your zone. Try to think of ideas that are within what you maybe you do for a living that certainly helps. So if you are frustrated with something or if you’re seeing something that happens or somebody in your family tried to do that. The other is what I get a lot of inspiration and odd ideas is when I exercise I could be on a bike ride, I could be at the gym, I can be doing something where my mind is being stressed and things like that. And for some reason, I come up with some great ideas or come up with fixes. Now. inventors and people are listening to me that does I mean that they’re all home runs, I have a book full and a closet full of ideas because I can make them that were duds. So even us, Chris and I both have come up with ideas that, you know, hey, they aren’t for everyone or they aren’t for the market. But that’s how I come up with ideas a lot of times is I look at issues, I look at problems. The as Chris mentioned, the easiest way to fix something is the nice lowest cost, you don’t want it to be a $500 fix for a $20 vacuum. Okay, so if nobody’s buying it, so just think about that. When you come up with your ideas. Is it feasible? Is it worthwhile? Is it marketable? And and then you’ll cross that idea off, or you’ll move forward with it. You know,

Chris Guerrera 35:40
I like simple ideas like small ideas, easy to sell, easy to handle, easy to ship, easy to put on shelves, how many times have you heard someone say, oh, man, I need to fix this, I need to come up with a better idea. We’ll come up with it. Don’t say they knew whose day? That’s what I used to say. Who’s there you have some you know, that’s gonna fix this. Or why don’t you just say, What do you think it needs. So maybe that’s part of the engineering. And that’s maybe part of how I brought up and I’ve designed and launched 1000s of products throughout my career in, in corporate in my own, but I always say like, who’s they? Like you, you do it, you come up with the idea, stop talking about it. I hear a lot of people talk about ideas. If you don’t take action, it’s all it’s ever going to be as an idea. And I promise you, somebody else will come up with it.

Max Branstetter 36:25
When you do come up with ideas like ones that actually you get pumped about. And they’re, you know, small, simple, low cost, like all the kind of initial things, they hit the criteria. What are your initial next steps? Like? Where do Where do you like, write it down? Or like put some, you know, permanence into this?

Chris Guerrera 36:41
I think you gotta prove the concept. Right, Carmine, that’s, that’s what I always say, I don’t care how you do it. But at some point, you gotta you gotta prove out the concept that it’s really solving the problem.

Carmine Denisco 36:50
Yeah, I agree. So. So what we usually try to do here is that somebody comes into our office at just thought of an idea, we always ask them to wait a little while, wait a week or two. Hey, listen, I love making money. But we also want the product to be successful. So we ask them to wait a little while think about it. And then secondly, they should do a little bit of research. But here’s the trick about that is that you can’t as the idea person do the research, because you’re not going to find something that’s like your product, because you really don’t want to. So find someone else to search for your product idea for what your product is going to do. Here at the office, we actually pay kids or high school kids to find stuff, not to not find things. So if we say, Hey, we got this product coming in, see what’s out there. And we will pay them to find something that’s like it when we pay him anyway. But, but the thing about it is, is we want them to find things and it’s okay to have products out there that are like your idea, you’re just going to build a better mousetrap a different color, yours is going to be around there’s a square. If everyone only had one product, we only have one bicycle, one car, one phone, so it’s okay to have a product that’s out there. You don’t have to be first as Chris knows, it’s expensive to be first.

Max Branstetter 38:03
I think that’s brilliant to have somebody else do the research and somebody else almost be like the devil’s advocate, because you’re right. I mean, with so many things in life, there’s confirmation bias with invention, it’s corny, this invention bias where like, you have this idea, like you instantly get romantic about it. And you still want it to like become a a real thing. And you know, change your life and so many lives around you that it’s like very easy to ignore some pretty fatal flaws early on. So I really love those approach people who

Chris Guerrera 38:35
are like, what I call patent freaks, they want to patent every country, unlike you haven’t sold in the US. Why do you want a patent in China and England and Indonesia? You know, you haven’t sold anything in the US. We’re gonna hang them on your wall. They look terrific on your wall. Let’s see that one’s 15,000 That one was seven, that one was 20. How much tell me show me products you sell? Oh, nothing yet, okay? Like, what’s the point, you can even launch products without a patent. Because you know, somebody at some point is going to try to rip you off. If you do the work, it’s a good product, you’re gonna get clone, someone’s gonna take it from you, then I always say even if you have a patent, how you’re gonna defend it, you’re willing to defend it, you have the cash to defend it. Because if a big company like 3am, decides that they want to swoop in on you, and you’re just a little guy who has a who had a great idea that now has a product and they want to take it from you. And you have a patent. That’s great. But how are you going to defend it?

Max Branstetter 39:27
I’m just imagining like 1000s of patents as wallpapers. It’s a bit of a non traditional approach, but it’s a great visual. How about outside of work? So Carmine, you mentioned exercise? Either of you What are you know, besides trying to take over the job as manager for the Yankees? What what are some hobbies or what would

Chris Guerrera 39:47
you like to know is what sort of Vikings defensive coordinator

Max Branstetter 39:50
that’s true, I’m okay but besides any vacant or already taking coaching positions what? What do you like to do outside of work?

Chris Guerrera 39:58
I’m a car fanatic. I I love cars. I’ve had Porsches, M6s, Range Rovers. I just love cars. I’m trying to I’m looking at buying a new M8 right now. And my wife’s like, do you really need another car? Nice, nice. I, here’s how I visualize it. When I told you I was 13, maybe I was 10. At this point, I don’t you might be too young for this max to Tyco and Aurora racetracks. I had all those racetracks, I had all the fancy cars. And then I grew up and actually bought those cars. As a kid, I had that mindset that someday I’m going to actually drive those cars. I loved them so much, that I grew up and bought them, talking about a waste of money, but it was fun. I had a lot of fun with them. And the sad part though, I lived in New Hampshire, so I couldn’t drive them in the winter. And now I live in South Carolina, I can drive them in the winter, I don’t have them anymore.

Max Branstetter 40:50
It’s like grass is always greener. It doesn’t line up. But that’s amazing. Those Those do sound familiar off to look them up after this. But how about you Carmine? And how about in addition to exercise, what else do you do to kind of keep your mind fresh and so I live

Carmine Denisco 41:03
in Tampa, just outside of Tampa, Florida, Clearwater, Florida. So we go to the beach, have a family, we go do things on the weekends, I I love what I do. My wife loads that she does. So it’s hard for us to get away from work because we have fun at work. We kind of work together our buildings are connected, which is really cool. But you know, I’m like, Chris, I think that a lot of us inventors are doing things with our hands. Even if you know we’re relaxing, I work on cars, I do things around the house, get out. I do go bike riding a lot. We do some long distance stuff. So yeah, just just relax and get away from work. But in my line of work, and same with Chris’s, we’re always kind of working just because we love what we do.

Max Branstetter 41:44
So speaking of loving what you do, let’s get to the unusual because I absolutely love hearing the aspects of you know, entrepreneurs like yourselves personality, pet peeves, quirks, weird talents, what? And I can imagine there can be some based on the jokes that we’ve had so far. But what’s your biggest pet peeve just something random that grinds your gears?

Chris Guerrera 42:06
It’s commitment, right? It’s back to like, if you say you’re gonna do something, just do it, don’t come up with all the excuses why he didn’t do it. Because the excuse part is easy. You can make those up all day. But to really follow through and finish up what you promise to deliver on, that takes a little bit more work, especially when things don’t go that smooth. So that’s kind of a pet peeve. And other pet peeve is when when someone contacts me. And they’re asking me a million questions about my background. So my first question is, I mean, we’re not even doing business yet. And I’m like, didn’t you look me up? How did you find me? Did you just search my name? Just type my name in and all the questions you’re asking me will come up? Like do some research.

Max Branstetter 42:51
Exactly, Mr. Cameron Guerrera. That’s exactly right. All right. So what about quirks? What’s something a little bit quirky about your personality? But so you are people love it? Yeah.

Chris Guerrera 43:03
I don’t know. I think because I’m always on time, I make a big deal about being on time. And some people, you know, like I talked about efficient, I’ll give you two of my talk about efficiencies and being on time. Like to me if you’re on time, you’re already late. So running a big company like BMW have in a conference room at any moment, you have over a million dollars of salary. So if somebody comes strolling in five or 10 minutes late, they missed the beginning of the meeting, first of all, to me, extremely disrespectful to the rest of the group. And there’s no way Why should anybody start over a meeting for something you missed. So we used to have like these rules in place, you get one free freebie, but it better be a good reason. The second one don’t show up. Third one you fired. And once you start setting those tones, again, you’re in a in a serious manufacturing operation, high level people build them BMW, you don’t have time for that. That’s something to do in high school. So that’s always been a pet peeve of mine. So being punctual, you know, and being being ready to go before you’re ready to go. And I think delivering I’ll give you another funny. This is a kind of a cute example. I have my 21 year old son with me, we’re hanging out, I think one day and I said, Hey, Tyler, what do you think? So this is what, four years ago? Yeah, cuz he’s 20. He’ll be 25, six months or four years ago. And it was December right before COVID. I say what do you think about me? Proposing live on Good Morning America to brandy? And he’s like, yeah, right. Sure. Like he didn’t like that, like zero. He’s seen me on Good Morning may see me on Shark tanks, even rallies, and he didn’t think you can happen. And I’m like, Okay, I’m gonna I’ll let you know. I sent a text to the producer and I literally got a response in 10 seconds. Doesn’t always happen like that just happens to be I caught her at the right time. She said I don’t know if I get you on live. She’s but I definitely get John. We’ll film it. And then as we get a little closer, we’ll plan it out. Within a minute. I had VIP passes. So now so now Tyler’s like, what? So then fast forward months in advance. We’re we’re getting ready to go, I’m getting calls at three in the morning and everyone’s like, what are you doing? It’s I’m working. So they’re trying to plan how they want to do it. It’s not live yet. So then I get a call at about 530 in the morning, just before we’re leaving, and they said everything I just told you scratch. We are going to go live. Not sure when yet it’ll probably be after eight o’clock. I’m gonna hand you a mic. You’re gonna get two minutes, bring the ring and don’t eff it up. So that you know that I’m in the studio. And I’m not really ready, right? I’m still like brains like brainy things. She has no idea like, I kept this. I didn’t tell anybody about my son. She had no idea. And I’m in the studio trying to play it out. Hi, I want to do this because I want to talk about they want me to talk about GM a little bit. I know Robin Roberts. They’re rolling into into the proposal. So she thought I was doing a pitch on a product. So I’ve been on a Good Morning America and on Shark Tank. Good Morning America version. Why did my product pitches. So funny? Eventually we do it. And it’s over goes really well, extremely well. Producer comes down and says Hey, did she say yes, ma’am. I was like, of course. I said yes. Then he goes, Did she swear? And I’m like, I don’t know, man. You give me the whole 30 seconds. 20 seconds. Tyler goes, yep. So I’m gonna find out. I shocked her so much. And she wasn’t miked. I was only one mic. She said, No effing way. Like she was, like, in disbelief. So in the back room, they’re trying to stop her from going across the wave lines, right? They’re trying to edit it and take it out. It just was funny. And I think what what the life lesson was there that Tyler saw something that looked impossible. And at the end, you know, he was talking to Miko, Stringham and Robin Roberts and he was an element he had never been in before. And it was pretty cool experience for me because his dad,

Max Branstetter 46:46
oh my god, that’s amazing. What was going through your mind when the first word out of her mouth was technically No,

Chris Guerrera 46:51
I didn’t really even listen, I like you know, I was so like, like, when you’re doing that you’re Yeah, there’s like steps. And you got to be careful, you don’t fall off. They got a camera on you. You’re holding the mic. Like the ring is in my pocket. Matter of fact, at one point and went to give Tyler the mic and he was backing away from it. So I need to pull the ring out and tell us what are you doing? Because I’m not talking? He said I wanted to give him the mic. To start talking. I know I need to get the ring out. So I didn’t hear any of that. And it was low enough. Like I think taller. I don’t think anybody heard it. But maybe tell him you know, the mics pick up everything. And we’re just kind of ironic, even when they filmed it, and they played it back. Can’t hear it. And then Robin Roberts did a follow up. They brought Good Morning America to the house. And he did a follow up about six months later at our house and it was pretty cool. Pretty cool experience.

Max Branstetter 47:38
That is unbelievable. And then how about weird talents or party tricks? What’s something that you’re really good at, but

Chris Guerrera 47:45
I used to be really good at funneling beer. I used to hold some.

Max Branstetter 47:50
Now that it’s a party trick.

Chris Guerrera 47:52
We’d get A a leader cut it in half we made we didn’t buy it and stuff on my day we made our own itch to onto the onto the bottle to free long. We pour six beers in and then time ourselves who can guzzle the best so I got that award. Perfect. I’m sure I can’t do that now. But

Max Branstetter 48:14
the best beer drinking advice that’s ever been on this market? No. Yeah, I don’t recommend it. All right. So let’s suds our way to wrap up with some rapid fire q&a. You’re ready for it? I’m ready. All right, let’s get wild. crack open a beer. What is your dream car of dream cars have old dream cars?

Chris Guerrera 48:37
Oh, it’s always been a Ferrari f8 Always. And every now and then I’m ready to buy one and I say this can’t do it. I’d rather buy another house or piece of problem. I’ve had all the cars right. We talked about that earlier. We had them for about a 650 convertible and I’m six MLS and X fives and Porsches. Nine elevens so I haven’t had a Ferrari. But that’s I guess if everything lined up, right, that would be the car. I like

Max Branstetter 49:05
it no hesitation. And then what you know you’ve lived in New Hampshire you’ve lived in you know now you’re living in South Carolina just a little bit different both East Coast ish though. What’s what’s been the biggest change in living in the from what where it gets super cold to South Carolina?

Chris Guerrera 49:23
Yeah, I’d say it’s not like you know, when you live and the North is changing it’s not like it used to be right used to be a lot of snow. And I was a kid really cold and it’s lightening up but but what I don’t miss is just that I don’t miss having to clean off my car shovel. The best way to describe it. I used to coach football and you know everyone loves September it’s football season. But for me it was like love football. But then I know right around the corner is going to be the nasty cold, snowy, windy, hellacious weather. I don’t have to deal with that. Now in the South. I literally don’t have to deal with any of that. Like there’s no snow. Although we did have snow last year. I mean five inches. Of course, right? Because I’m down here now, but typically it’s pretty warm. It’s not that heavy struggle of dealing with it. Because you know, at three months of dealing with cold weather and snow, you’re done by the third month you’ve had enough man like, and then you don’t really get springs down here. You truly get a spring, you truly get a fall. So I don’t miss any of that up north.

Max Branstetter 50:20
Yeah, I’ve always thought that like, I enjoy experiencing the different seasons, at least for a little bit. But like winter, I could do probably like one day of snow and cold and then like, alright, let’s bring on late spring.

Chris Guerrera 50:34
It got pretty cool here this Christmas. I was I happen to be in Minnesota. I went to the Vikings Giants game on Christmas Eve. I mean, talk about that for a second. Right. So it was my birthday. It was a white out. Jefferson broke a record Vikings kicked along this field, whatever at the end to win it. Talking about an amazing time. Like I have a memory that will last forever that I’ve been to the Super Bowl. And that game in person was probably better than the Super Bowl game I went to which was the rams and the Patriots. And I think it was 2018. It was just and it was minus 38. Outside Windchill minus 38.

Max Branstetter 51:10
It makes you thankful that the they built a dome for the bike. Well, they had a dome, but I mean,

Chris Guerrera 51:15
yeah, but they also have what they call these walk the Skywalkers. Which Yeah, I’ve heard of that. It’s you out of the element, but you still got to get to them. I’m telling you. If someone asked me to describe what does minus 38 feel like, I can only tell him he’s like your face is gonna fall off. Literally. We’re trying to walk around a little bit for 1015 minutes. You just can’t do it that cold.

Max Branstetter 51:35
How about on the coaching side? So you’ve coached football, you coach all sorts of different ages of baseball? What is your best advice for anybody who wants to get into coaching out there?

Chris Guerrera 51:45
First of all, your kid is not always the best. That’s the first thing. Everyone thinks it’s a tough pill to swallow. Yep, should be the I mean, you gotta be honest. Because I mean, if you’re not careful, something get her that I always say like, I used to tell the parents, I keep score. So I’m actually trying to win. I’m gonna teach your kids how to play and how to be better athletes and, and really grow into, you know, a good human. But as long as we keep score, I’m trying to win. And that’s a life lesson. I mean, it really is. And structure is really important, especially in football. I mean structure is really important. And I’ll give you a fun story on a baseball I coached it just as 1011 year old love 1011 12 year olds, I just kid probably you have you know, you’re good players, right? You know, the kids are good. And another ones that are learning I had a kid who was pretty much learning showed up every single night for practice. He gave it 110% Every single night. And I’ll never forget, I mean a couple of these stories like this, but I’ll never forget this one. He comes up. I think at the beginning, we’re probably near the bottom as far as our draft went of where they picked us to finish. And now we’re in the championship game. So again, it shows you about showing up structure teaching. This kid comes to the plate. He’s up have the winning run on third. And he literally shaking. So I call a timeout. I call him over. It’s a matter. So you look nervous. He goes, I’m not sure I can even swing the bat. I’m so scared. I said why. So I just kind of tried to calm him down and said, You have been nothing but amazing all year long. You’ve been a great kid. You showed up every practice, you know how to hit you not a catch. This is no different. Just forget everything. He’s gonna throw you a pitch. You’re gonna see it and you’re gonna hit it. And we’re gonna win. That’s simple. So like, you can see the confidence it gets up. He gets a basis, we win the game. And after that game, his mother came up to me and she’s bawling her eyes out like cry. I’ve never had anybody teach my kid like this. I can’t believe this. I never would have expected this. The kids cry and like I’m starting to get choked up. And I said, Listen, ma’am, you brought them every single night to practice. It’s not me. It’s your kid. It’s you. You took that pride in taking him to practice every night. He’s a was an absolute joy to coach. And here he gets the game when he hit. So you know what that turns out in the future that builds confidence. Now his school grades go up, he feels better about himself. And to me that’s what’s rewarding for me to have been probably 30 years ago that story, but it still sticks with me like it was yesterday.

Max Branstetter 54:21
What a rewarding note to end on a game winning note to end on I’m gonna hit the batting cages right after this has been too long. But Chris, thank you so much. This has been amazing. Just absolutely love. All you do and your stories and jokes, everything in between and really appreciate Carmine and everything you guys do as well. Thanks again for coming on. And where’s the best place for people to learn more about the United inventors Association? The UIA

Chris Guerrera 54:49
you can go to the website UIAUSA.org and then you’ll see our profiles and all we do. For me it’s ChrisGuerrera.com It’s my name Christopher Guerrera, Chris Guerrera. You can Google me, you’ll see I’ve been on Shark Tank and Good Morning America, I’ve been on Shark Tank season 12 finale. So I’m not hard to find. And I’m happy to help anybody that is willing to put the time. And I’m glad to be part of all that. And you’ll see coming up, we’re at some bit, we had a lot of the big shows and inventor corners. And we put on a lot of education. We have a lot of Shark Tank people there live pitch panels. And we just bring, for example, the National Hardware Show, we have over 75 speakers on two stages, just for that show. So we really have a good network, and a lot of good people want to help.

Max Branstetter 55:40
Amazing. Thank you so much. Last thing, Final Thoughts, stage is yours like it is often, Final Thoughts. It could be a quote, it could be aligned, kind of almost a Yogi Berra, quote, whatever words to live by, send us home here.

Chris Guerrera 55:52
So if you have an idea, act on it, because it’s just an idea until you literally act on it. I hear a lot of people talk about a lot of different things. And you know, you go back to pet peeves act on it, because you never know. I mean, like it’s like buying the stock. If you’re afraid to buy it, then don’t bother buying stocks, you have to take a risk. Because without the risk, there is no there really is no reward.

Max Branstetter 56:19
No risk, no reward. But if there’s a Chris, there’s a Carmine. Thank you so much, Chris and Carmine, for coming on the podcast, sharing your incredible inventing and manufacturing and engineering and cars and sports tips. You heard Chris’s information. He’s also on LinkedIn. And Carmine, you can find on LinkedIn as well as well as EarmarkSourcing.com. That’s EarmarkSourcing.com. Thank you, Wild Listeners, for tuning into another Wild episode. If you want to hear more Wild – I’m going crazy with the Wild – if you want to hear more Wild stories like this one, make sure to follow the Wild Business Growth podcast on your favorite app and tell a friend about the podcast. And then, listen again to the analogies from Carmine and Chris and appreciate the alliteration with both of their names. You can also find us on Goodpods, where there are very good podcasts. And for any help with podcast production, you can learn more at MaxPodcasting.com and sign up for the Podcasting to the Max newsletter – that is at MaxPodcasting.com/Newsletter. Until next time, let your business Run Wild…Bring on the Bongos!!